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[Music]

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hello and welcome to the show

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i'm martin wilsher host and uh we have

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an exciting show for you tonight we have

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two

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guests we're starting out with jack

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bushong and

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he actually contacted me because he read

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a blog

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that charles lear wrote about his case

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in michigan

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which happened in 1994. i don't want to

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get the dates confused with the other

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one

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which is and our guest ian rogers he's

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going to be in the second half

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about canada's uh crazy ufo

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well i'll give a spoiler here it was a

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hoax

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but um called the some people call it

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the guardian case

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the guardian vhs uh video that was sent

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to someone

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uh some people call it the carp ontario

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uh

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incident you know that but there's a lot

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more to it

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than just what was hoaxed because it was

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a there's a lot going on

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in that particular area believe it or

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not so anyway we'll be talking to him

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on the second part of this show and our

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blog this week is a helicopter crew

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encounters a ufo by charles lear and

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that's about the

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um the captain coin helicopter case

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fascinating case it's one of one of the

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ones i've really

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uh liked reading about how the

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uh the ufo actually lifted the

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helicopter that's what they

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they figure happened because it rose

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really fast

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and uh anyway a very scary encounter so

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that one

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uh is a great blog and that will be an

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audio blog a little late on the last

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audio blog but that will be coming along

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um just a little bit i want to talk

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about um

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and you know it's kind of a negative

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thing but i think i should bring it up

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and that is uh

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um you know people have heard me talk

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about

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um a few different people on this show

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that uh i think you know should be

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called out

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and uh one of them is dr stephen greer

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and he's looking for attention right now

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so

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louis elizondo is a disinformation agent

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and uh leslie kane and he calls her

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leslie keane

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and uh chris mellon and all that they're

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all in on it and she and

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sheenan the lawyer i believe uh i'm i i

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don't remember that

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part of it right now but anyway um you

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know he

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did wonderful works dr steven grier did

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wonderful work in the beginning

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um he was the disclosure guy the first

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one that was actually talking about

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disclosure and i think

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there may be a little jealousy out there

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with him um because that's what he's

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pushing

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you know that they are all

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disinformation and it's a false

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disclosure and

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you know he wants to be the disclosure

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guy but anyway um

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if you're new and just looking into the

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ufo

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field i'm just gonna tell you stay clear

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of greer

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so there maybe he could sue me

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because a lot of people are saying that

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he's actually looking

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to get sued by by those people

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just to get back in the news again and

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relevant

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so uh um he can uh do that to me if you

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would like to that's just fine

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anyway um that's a little bit of

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negativity i hate starting off like that

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but

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i wanted to just uh address that because

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um he doesn't need

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the limelight to be the mr disclosure

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guy

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these other people that have come along

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are doing a wonderful job in my opinion

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anyway here we go our guest was

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involved on a radar screen he's got a

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great background

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he's more on the science side and he was

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involved in a

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mysterious case over lake michigan in

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that area

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and we are going to bring him in right

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now jack welcome to the show

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thank you thank you very much yeah and

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so jack you actually contacted me which

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i thought was uh very nice

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and so i looked up i remember reading

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the blog and thinking wow

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you know you watched what was going on

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and

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can you for the person that's never

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heard about this particular case does it

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have like a

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name

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like the lake michigan encounter or

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uh it doesn't have any type of name that

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people call it by

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basically in michigan it's called the

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march 8 1994 tour

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uh not tornado but uh ufo i'm used to

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tornado ufo

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a weather guy right

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yeah that's what i usually say um but uh

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uh yeah this uh this happened on a uh

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a very cold year this is the this was

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the cold year

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where mount pinatubo uh erupted the year

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before

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so uh the great lakes largely froze over

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that year

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and including lake michigan i had never

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seen lake michigan freeze over

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completely all the way over

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uh except there was some uh area

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um down towards the south the southern

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uh maybe eighth of uh of the

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lake had opened some up open water down

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there but

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otherwise most of the great lakes were

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ice covered except for lake ontario

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maybe

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and so it was an unusual winter usually

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in muskegon michigan

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we we have uh due to the warm lakes

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and the cold air going over the warm

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lakes we have snow

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happening all the time we have clouds

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happening all the time throughout the

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winter

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uh but in this case we had uh which is

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very

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winter

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uh with uh with the lake michigan froze

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it all over

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and very cold conditions so without the

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lake effect uh

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and uh so this was a a very unusual

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night and uh

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extremely cold high pressure dome the

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radar was working up uh

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perfectly there was no uh super

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refraction of the radar because there's

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no inversions

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and uh um so i can debunk that which is

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a lot of people

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have been trying to tell me but the

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weather conditions were not

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right for the super refraction or

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inversions of the radar

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and uh so and uh

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what happened was uh

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with the national weather service were

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called quite often by

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uh law enforcement all the time uh

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uh that and this would be the central

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dispatcher of ottawa county which is the

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county

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this is where the grand haven and

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holland is in

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in ottawa county and they had literally

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dozens of phone calls coming from

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the entire county uh from

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north east to southwest

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in that general line towards and

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going towards lake michigan

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now they

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uh what what they did is they sent out a

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police officer to the very first

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caller uh and uh

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by the time he got there the ufo had

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had or i guess uap you call it now uh

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the ufp

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had uh been it was at treetop level

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and there was some recording of you can

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hear the recordings from them

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and you can hear a little child saying

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you know oh my goodness it's a ufo you

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know as a little four-year-old

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child saying this and uh

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so um but anyway it was uh they say it

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was near treetop level

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at that level i would not have been able

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to see

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uh the object uh due to the curvature of

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the earth

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so and and any ground clutter that might

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be in the way

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so um so uh

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by the time that uh i was called by

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uh the sheriff's department or um

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the sheriff called uh dispat or called

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radioed back dispatch dispatch call

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try to call the faa they wouldn't answer

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this was about nine o'clock at night

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and so he called uh me uh

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i was uh on shift alone it was a fair

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weather night

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nothing going on in the weather uh the

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radar was doing its uh usual rotation as

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it always does

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even though there's no weather out there

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and um

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he uh uh they asked me well can you see

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uh objects in the sky we have uh

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you know we have um uh uh

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we have story we have a lot of reports

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of lights in the sky

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at our treetop level it's scaring a lot

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of our citizens

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knowing that i could actually see

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airplanes i can i could actually see

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jumbo jets and on

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on fair weather days when i was trying

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to get

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proficient at weather radar i would

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actually

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try to spot a uh um

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a an airplane and yes you can see an

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airplane with a

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weather radar that's why i showed this

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had this graphic right here

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uh if you want to put it up there uh

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even though it's backwards

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it is backwards i'm sorry about that but

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as you see in the top left hand

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side um we have uh

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what faa radars don't have is we have

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the capability

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of determining the type of uh

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whether it's a liquid solid highly

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reflective

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or basically what it is and that's what

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it shows down in the amplitude

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uh scale down there that's basically a

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measure of the amount of energy coming

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back

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and as you can see uh there on the

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left the airplane shows a certain type

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of signature

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uh it's saying it shows a certain type

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of signature that's similar to the

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the building on the right hand side

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rainfall

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on the other hand uh shows a signature

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that's much more fuzzy

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and the ground also a mountain or so on

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will have a more of a fuzzy appearance

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but because this is a high reflective

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object

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um it was uh

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definitely an airplane it was moving not

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an airplane but an aircraft

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it was moving at i could detect it

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moving at a certain speed it was moving

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pretty smoothly about 100 miles an hour

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one minute of looking at it

287
00:12:11,350 --> 00:12:10,069
and i had already known that i could

288
00:12:14,069 --> 00:12:11,360
look at uh

289
00:12:15,430 --> 00:12:14,079
fine jumbo jets on radar i i would

290
00:12:18,629 --> 00:12:15,440
actually point

291
00:12:20,790 --> 00:12:18,639
the radar down at uh i've always been an

292
00:12:22,150 --> 00:12:20,800
aviation buff i've flown on airplanes

293
00:12:24,949 --> 00:12:22,160
all the time

294
00:12:26,389 --> 00:12:24,959
and uh throughout my life and uh i flew

295
00:12:28,550 --> 00:12:26,399
from fort lauderdale i grew up in fort

296
00:12:31,829 --> 00:12:28,560
lauderdale and i was born in michigan so

297
00:12:33,190 --> 00:12:31,839
would see my dad in michigan every

298
00:12:35,910 --> 00:12:33,200
summer and winter so

299
00:12:37,190 --> 00:12:35,920
i was always flying back and forth my

300
00:12:40,150 --> 00:12:37,200
entire life

301
00:12:40,550 --> 00:12:40,160
so i knew chicago o'hare airport pretty

302
00:12:42,949 --> 00:12:40,560
well

303
00:12:45,110 --> 00:12:42,959
and i knew by pointing the radar over at

304
00:12:46,310 --> 00:12:45,120
chicago here i would always see jumbo

305
00:12:48,790 --> 00:12:46,320
jets flying

306
00:12:50,389 --> 00:12:48,800
and taking off and i could follow them

307
00:12:52,870 --> 00:12:50,399
uh no problem

308
00:12:53,590 --> 00:12:52,880
and this actually had the same signature

309
00:12:56,550 --> 00:12:53,600
as

310
00:12:57,590 --> 00:12:56,560
like what a jumbo jet would have it it

311
00:13:02,870 --> 00:12:57,600
was

312
00:13:06,550 --> 00:13:02,880
000 feet when i first saw it

313
00:13:10,470 --> 00:13:06,560
in altitude and and then it

314
00:13:13,990 --> 00:13:10,480
uh after watching it move slowly

315
00:13:17,509 --> 00:13:14,000
it started doing some crazy things it uh

316
00:13:20,550 --> 00:13:17,519
it split up into three and uh

317
00:13:23,910 --> 00:13:20,560
and i uh and when i looked

318
00:13:25,190 --> 00:13:23,920
at the radar at that point i have the

319
00:13:29,190 --> 00:13:25,200
ability to

320
00:13:32,470 --> 00:13:29,200
unlike an faa radar uh my radar

321
00:13:34,230 --> 00:13:32,480
the radar beam goes out in a cone shape

322
00:13:37,350 --> 00:13:34,240
a round cone shape

323
00:13:38,710 --> 00:13:37,360
and it's generally up at a 0.5 degree

324
00:13:40,150 --> 00:13:38,720
level going around

325
00:13:41,829 --> 00:13:40,160
and you know the weather radars go

326
00:13:46,710 --> 00:13:41,839
around pretty slowly

327
00:13:48,870 --> 00:13:46,720
uh the but it's only to look at the

328
00:13:51,990 --> 00:13:48,880
bottom part of the atmosphere

329
00:13:53,269 --> 00:13:52,000
usually not it's it's different with the

330
00:13:56,550 --> 00:13:53,279
doppler radar now

331
00:13:58,790 --> 00:13:56,560
today but back then we were only

332
00:13:59,750 --> 00:13:58,800
interested in how much rainfall was

333
00:14:03,110 --> 00:13:59,760
falling

334
00:14:07,269 --> 00:14:03,120
at the bottom part of the atmosphere so

335
00:14:10,069 --> 00:14:07,279
uh so i had to i did have the ability to

336
00:14:13,590 --> 00:14:10,079
crank the radar in the vertical position

337
00:14:16,389 --> 00:14:13,600
and also take it off automatic rotation

338
00:14:17,269 --> 00:14:16,399
and wave the radar back and forth so

339
00:14:20,949 --> 00:14:17,279
that i could

340
00:14:23,670 --> 00:14:20,959
uh reflect whatever was in the

341
00:14:25,430 --> 00:14:23,680
the sky there and i and i would wave it

342
00:14:26,710 --> 00:14:25,440
back and forth the radar being back and

343
00:14:29,670 --> 00:14:26,720
forth back and forth

344
00:14:30,629 --> 00:14:29,680
up and down up and down because uh the

345
00:14:32,790 --> 00:14:30,639
radar beam

346
00:14:33,910 --> 00:14:32,800
uh would would be cone-shaped and would

347
00:14:36,389 --> 00:14:33,920
get larger

348
00:14:38,389 --> 00:14:36,399
as you go far away from the uh from the

349
00:14:41,350 --> 00:14:38,399
radar and at about that

350
00:14:42,310 --> 00:14:41,360
distance the uh the radar beam would be

351
00:14:45,110 --> 00:14:42,320
about

352
00:14:45,750 --> 00:14:45,120
uh half a mile and so anything within

353
00:14:47,910 --> 00:14:45,760
that half

354
00:14:49,189 --> 00:14:47,920
mile would bleed together because of the

355
00:14:52,150 --> 00:14:49,199
resolution at that

356
00:14:53,829 --> 00:14:52,160
at that point but the most uh energy

357
00:14:56,870 --> 00:14:53,839
would be down the center line

358
00:15:00,710 --> 00:14:56,880
and then we consider the uh beam width

359
00:15:01,670 --> 00:15:00,720
as being uh from the amount of energy at

360
00:15:04,870 --> 00:15:01,680
the center

361
00:15:08,069 --> 00:15:04,880
to where the half uh point is

362
00:15:10,069 --> 00:15:08,079
of the energy at the side so at the side

363
00:15:12,790 --> 00:15:10,079
you know and we would consider that the

364
00:15:16,550 --> 00:15:12,800
cone of our radar

365
00:15:19,750 --> 00:15:16,560
and so uh what it was telling me

366
00:15:21,509 --> 00:15:19,760
was the radar signature was was uh that

367
00:15:24,230 --> 00:15:21,519
it was a solid object

368
00:15:26,790 --> 00:15:24,240
it was a highly reflective solid object

369
00:15:30,069 --> 00:15:26,800
it was just like an airliner

370
00:15:31,910 --> 00:15:30,079
now the the problem was was that as soon

371
00:15:34,870 --> 00:15:31,920
as i started looking at it

372
00:15:36,150 --> 00:15:34,880
within a few i don't know about 15

373
00:15:39,350 --> 00:15:36,160
seconds

374
00:15:43,189 --> 00:15:39,360
uh to a minute of looking at it the

375
00:15:46,230 --> 00:15:43,199
uh the uh immediately

376
00:15:49,269 --> 00:15:46,240
uh i saw it split up into three

377
00:15:52,629 --> 00:15:49,279
and it split up into three in a vertical

378
00:15:55,189 --> 00:15:52,639
triangle uh it um

379
00:15:55,670 --> 00:15:55,199
it was it's really hard to explain but

380
00:16:02,710 --> 00:15:55,680
it

381
00:16:06,389 --> 00:16:02,720
about say 50 miles from the radar

382
00:16:09,670 --> 00:16:06,399
there was one object that was uh

383
00:16:10,150 --> 00:16:09,680
stacked on top of another one was about

384
00:16:12,550 --> 00:16:10,160
80

385
00:16:13,990 --> 00:16:12,560
000 feet in the air the other one was

386
00:16:16,790 --> 00:16:14,000
down at about 15

387
00:16:17,350 --> 00:16:16,800
000 feet in the air and then there was a

388
00:16:20,870 --> 00:16:17,360
third

389
00:16:23,509 --> 00:16:20,880
one that was closer to the radar

390
00:16:24,389 --> 00:16:23,519
uh but it was making a triangular

391
00:16:27,189 --> 00:16:24,399
formation

392
00:16:29,670 --> 00:16:27,199
on my vertical scope the kind where i

393
00:16:30,870 --> 00:16:29,680
can see the slice of the cloud or the

394
00:16:34,310 --> 00:16:30,880
thunderstorm

395
00:16:37,350 --> 00:16:34,320
in the vertical uh way and

396
00:16:41,670 --> 00:16:37,360
and in order that's

397
00:16:44,629 --> 00:16:41,680
really very um

398
00:16:45,590 --> 00:16:44,639
uh it's a it's an extreme coincidence

399
00:16:48,870 --> 00:16:45,600
because

400
00:16:51,269 --> 00:16:48,880
you in order for that to happen the

401
00:16:52,470 --> 00:16:51,279
objects would have to be directly down

402
00:16:56,389 --> 00:16:52,480
the radial

403
00:17:00,150 --> 00:16:56,399
of the radar and it was almost as if it

404
00:17:01,749 --> 00:17:00,160
it was pointing an arrow directly back

405
00:17:05,110 --> 00:17:01,759
at my radar

406
00:17:08,150 --> 00:17:05,120
it really uh confused me and that's when

407
00:17:11,990 --> 00:17:08,160
on the 911 tape i said oh my god what

408
00:17:14,309 --> 00:17:12,000
is this because it was literally

409
00:17:15,590 --> 00:17:14,319
you know i saw the two objects stacked

410
00:17:18,870 --> 00:17:15,600
on top of each other

411
00:17:21,590 --> 00:17:18,880
i saw the third object directly

412
00:17:22,309 --> 00:17:21,600
pointing toward the radar and almost

413
00:17:25,270 --> 00:17:22,319
looking like an

414
00:17:26,710 --> 00:17:25,280
uh the tip of an arrow pointing directly

415
00:17:30,230 --> 00:17:26,720
at the radar

416
00:17:33,830 --> 00:17:30,240
um so that confused me uh

417
00:17:38,150 --> 00:17:33,840
and uh but at the very same time

418
00:17:41,029 --> 00:17:38,160
the police officer saw the same thing

419
00:17:42,390 --> 00:17:41,039
and uh in fact there was another

420
00:17:45,669 --> 00:17:42,400
verification of it

421
00:17:46,150 --> 00:17:45,679
where there was a report from somebody

422
00:17:49,590 --> 00:17:46,160
uh

423
00:17:52,710 --> 00:17:49,600
on the um on lake michigan who saw it

424
00:17:54,070 --> 00:17:52,720
he lived on lake michigan and he said

425
00:17:57,830 --> 00:17:54,080
that he saw

426
00:18:01,110 --> 00:17:57,840
uh what looked like uh stacked

427
00:18:04,150 --> 00:18:01,120
ufos on one on top of each other

428
00:18:06,230 --> 00:18:04,160
at one point and so that matches

429
00:18:08,310 --> 00:18:06,240
pretty much what i saw for a brief

430
00:18:11,430 --> 00:18:08,320
moment now those other

431
00:18:12,230 --> 00:18:11,440
uh now in triangular formation in the

432
00:18:15,990 --> 00:18:12,240
vertical

433
00:18:18,070 --> 00:18:16,000
it finally flipped and went horizontal

434
00:18:19,909 --> 00:18:18,080
it was all they they were all at about

435
00:18:23,029 --> 00:18:19,919
the same altitude

436
00:18:26,310 --> 00:18:23,039
at about 15 000 feet and then they

437
00:18:29,430 --> 00:18:26,320
kept making a uh

438
00:18:33,270 --> 00:18:29,440
a triangular formation so one

439
00:18:37,510 --> 00:18:33,280
uh the closest return

440
00:18:41,110 --> 00:18:37,520
would uh actually uh move first

441
00:18:43,750 --> 00:18:41,120
and it began it began to move

442
00:18:45,110 --> 00:18:43,760
more of a westerly direction towards

443
00:18:47,830 --> 00:18:45,120
lake michigan

444
00:18:49,190 --> 00:18:47,840
first it got to the shoreline of lake

445
00:18:52,630 --> 00:18:49,200
michigan

446
00:18:54,870 --> 00:18:52,640
and then they uh

447
00:18:55,990 --> 00:18:54,880
then they they became a triangular

448
00:18:59,190 --> 00:18:56,000
formation that went

449
00:19:01,510 --> 00:18:59,200
over a couple

450
00:19:03,029 --> 00:19:01,520
they two of them were on the shoreline

451
00:19:05,270 --> 00:19:03,039
and the other one was inland a little

452
00:19:08,470 --> 00:19:05,280
bit but making an equidistant

453
00:19:10,470 --> 00:19:08,480
um equidistant triangle of about 20

454
00:19:12,789 --> 00:19:10,480
miles apart from each other and it was

455
00:19:15,909 --> 00:19:12,799
instantaneous

456
00:19:18,150 --> 00:19:15,919
and now with though

457
00:19:19,990 --> 00:19:18,160
the radar that i was sweeping back and

458
00:19:22,070 --> 00:19:20,000
forth if you can imagine further away

459
00:19:24,150 --> 00:19:22,080
away from the radar you get

460
00:19:25,590 --> 00:19:24,160
the beam is going to be going faster and

461
00:19:29,029 --> 00:19:25,600
faster you know

462
00:19:30,150 --> 00:19:29,039
uh waving back and forth uh close by the

463
00:19:33,510 --> 00:19:30,160
radar you know

464
00:19:36,070 --> 00:19:33,520
the beam is going by maybe i don't know

465
00:19:39,190 --> 00:19:36,080
as i was cranking it back and forth like

466
00:19:41,750 --> 00:19:39,200
that maybe at about 100 miles an hour

467
00:19:43,830 --> 00:19:41,760
close to the radar but if you go way out

468
00:19:46,789 --> 00:19:43,840
to where the radar beam is

469
00:19:49,510 --> 00:19:46,799
is being swept i was sweeping from say

470
00:19:51,990 --> 00:19:49,520
south bend indiana to chicago

471
00:19:52,870 --> 00:19:52,000
within about a half a second each so

472
00:19:55,830 --> 00:19:52,880
that's

473
00:19:56,950 --> 00:19:55,840
thousands of miles an hour so they were

474
00:19:59,669 --> 00:19:56,960
actually able to

475
00:20:00,630 --> 00:19:59,679
jump you know within that 20 miles

476
00:20:04,230 --> 00:20:00,640
within that

477
00:20:06,230 --> 00:20:04,240
short amount of period and uh but

478
00:20:07,350 --> 00:20:06,240
the people on the ground actually did

479
00:20:11,430 --> 00:20:07,360
say they didn't just

480
00:20:14,149 --> 00:20:11,440
disappear and then show up they actually

481
00:20:15,270 --> 00:20:14,159
uh they actually went from a hover to an

482
00:20:19,990 --> 00:20:15,280
extreme

483
00:20:22,310 --> 00:20:20,000
acceleration

484
00:20:23,590 --> 00:20:22,320
and then would uh de-accelerate and go

485
00:20:27,750 --> 00:20:23,600
to another hover

486
00:20:28,230 --> 00:20:27,760
uh 20 miles away and they kept doing

487
00:20:31,830 --> 00:20:28,240
this

488
00:20:33,750 --> 00:20:31,840
for um uh for as long

489
00:20:35,350 --> 00:20:33,760
see i was i was on their phone call with

490
00:20:39,350 --> 00:20:35,360
ottawa county sheriffs

491
00:20:42,710 --> 00:20:39,360
uh for about 45 minutes describing the

492
00:20:46,070 --> 00:20:42,720
movements and they did it

493
00:20:48,390 --> 00:20:46,080
these objects did it several times

494
00:20:50,390 --> 00:20:48,400
where the the the main one it seemed

495
00:20:51,909 --> 00:20:50,400
like or the closest one to the radar

496
00:20:55,270 --> 00:20:51,919
would move first

497
00:20:58,070 --> 00:20:55,280
the other two would follow and go into

498
00:21:01,909 --> 00:20:58,080
another triangular formation again

499
00:21:03,190 --> 00:21:01,919
and uh and then um there was a fourth

500
00:21:05,669 --> 00:21:03,200
one that i saw that

501
00:21:07,830 --> 00:21:05,679
kind of would come into play every once

502
00:21:10,149 --> 00:21:07,840
in a while but i couldn't really

503
00:21:10,870 --> 00:21:10,159
find it or keep track of it i was

504
00:21:13,909 --> 00:21:10,880
already

505
00:21:14,789 --> 00:21:13,919
really looking at those three uh that i

506
00:21:17,830 --> 00:21:14,799
could see

507
00:21:20,789 --> 00:21:17,840
uh the best and uh but they

508
00:21:21,669 --> 00:21:20,799
uh instead of moving from say and this

509
00:21:25,029 --> 00:21:21,679
is my map

510
00:21:28,470 --> 00:21:25,039
of michigan if i do it the right way uh

511
00:21:30,549 --> 00:21:28,480
where okay do i have the detroit okay

512
00:21:33,110 --> 00:21:30,559
detroit over here

513
00:21:34,149 --> 00:21:33,120
by my thumb and then muskegon is over

514
00:21:37,430 --> 00:21:34,159
here

515
00:21:40,310 --> 00:21:37,440
from uh the

516
00:21:41,270 --> 00:21:40,320
the top there was sightings in a row

517
00:21:45,750 --> 00:21:41,280
from

518
00:21:49,029 --> 00:21:45,760
uh houghton uh lake down towards the

519
00:21:50,470 --> 00:21:49,039
south southwest towards holland michigan

520
00:21:52,310 --> 00:21:50,480
right down here

521
00:21:54,149 --> 00:21:52,320
but then as soon as i started looking at

522
00:21:57,590 --> 00:21:54,159
them they went out to the middle of

523
00:22:00,310 --> 00:21:57,600
oops wrong way middle of lake michigan

524
00:22:01,750 --> 00:22:00,320
and uh so uh they went to the middle of

525
00:22:05,590 --> 00:22:01,760
lake michigan due

526
00:22:06,070 --> 00:22:05,600
west of say uh grand grand haven right

527
00:22:09,830 --> 00:22:06,080
there

528
00:22:12,549 --> 00:22:09,840
and uh

529
00:22:14,470 --> 00:22:12,559
which would be between the letters where

530
00:22:15,029 --> 00:22:14,480
you see grand rapids and kalamazoo would

531
00:22:19,110 --> 00:22:15,039
be

532
00:22:19,590 --> 00:22:19,120
were in the middle of lake michigan

533
00:22:22,230 --> 00:22:19,600
right there

534
00:22:24,310 --> 00:22:22,240
smack dab in the middle lake michigan at

535
00:22:26,950 --> 00:22:24,320
that point is about 80 miles across so

536
00:22:28,630 --> 00:22:26,960
they were 40 miles from milwaukee and 40

537
00:22:32,070 --> 00:22:28,640
miles from the lake michigan

538
00:22:35,430 --> 00:22:32,080
shoreline in michigan now from there

539
00:22:38,630 --> 00:22:35,440
they they kept doing the same thing uh

540
00:22:39,190 --> 00:22:38,640
only this time the main northernmost

541
00:22:42,149 --> 00:22:39,200
point

542
00:22:42,950 --> 00:22:42,159
would go to the south and the other two

543
00:22:45,830 --> 00:22:42,960
would follow

544
00:22:47,190 --> 00:22:45,840
again making triangular formation every

545
00:22:50,470 --> 00:22:47,200
time it did it

546
00:22:53,510 --> 00:22:50,480
now uh once the um

547
00:22:55,430 --> 00:22:53,520
once the objects moved out of the county

548
00:22:55,990 --> 00:22:55,440
and into the middle of lake michigan the

549
00:22:58,870 --> 00:22:56,000
sheriff

550
00:22:59,909 --> 00:22:58,880
could not see the uh uh the objects

551
00:23:02,230 --> 00:22:59,919
anymore

552
00:23:03,830 --> 00:23:02,240
uh he actually was chasing them with a

553
00:23:06,630 --> 00:23:03,840
squad car

554
00:23:08,070 --> 00:23:06,640
and towards the west and uh he couldn't

555
00:23:11,669 --> 00:23:08,080
keep up with them of course

556
00:23:14,390 --> 00:23:11,679
and um uh but uh but

557
00:23:16,149 --> 00:23:14,400
uh of course i could see it on radar and

558
00:23:19,270 --> 00:23:16,159
see everything they were doing

559
00:23:22,710 --> 00:23:19,280
and i saw them uh for

560
00:23:24,470 --> 00:23:22,720
uh uh they we got off the phone after 45

561
00:23:27,430 --> 00:23:24,480
minutes with ottawa county

562
00:23:28,390 --> 00:23:27,440
once they were away from ottawa county

563
00:23:31,350 --> 00:23:28,400
it seemed like

564
00:23:32,630 --> 00:23:31,360
central dispatch was not concerned about

565
00:23:34,470 --> 00:23:32,640
it anymore they were

566
00:23:36,230 --> 00:23:34,480
out of his airspace he didn't care

567
00:23:39,590 --> 00:23:36,240
anymore but

568
00:23:41,909 --> 00:23:39,600
uh it was i had i had regular duties i

569
00:23:44,950 --> 00:23:41,919
had to do service observations get

570
00:23:47,990 --> 00:23:44,960
something on the weather radio uh and

571
00:23:48,390 --> 00:23:48,000
uh but every time i came back i would

572
00:23:50,950 --> 00:23:48,400
see

573
00:23:52,070 --> 00:23:50,960
these objects and i watched them for two

574
00:23:55,110 --> 00:23:52,080
hours

575
00:23:58,470 --> 00:23:55,120
uh in fact i watched them until i left

576
00:23:59,029 --> 00:23:58,480
the office at midnight um did you tell

577
00:24:04,230 --> 00:23:59,039
the

578
00:24:07,750 --> 00:24:04,240
did he had no explanation

579
00:24:11,750 --> 00:24:07,760
uh he i was a little embarrassed about

580
00:24:13,590 --> 00:24:11,760
what went on uh i had no idea

581
00:24:15,430 --> 00:24:13,600
it didn't even cross my mind that i was

582
00:24:18,789 --> 00:24:15,440
being recorded

583
00:24:21,430 --> 00:24:18,799
and uh so uh um i did make a

584
00:24:23,029 --> 00:24:21,440
short note uh that i was called by

585
00:24:24,950 --> 00:24:23,039
ottawa county sheriff

586
00:24:27,190 --> 00:24:24,960
to look at something on radar i saw

587
00:24:30,230 --> 00:24:27,200
something and it was moving

588
00:24:30,710 --> 00:24:30,240
quite fast uh and i just threw out a

589
00:24:33,350 --> 00:24:30,720
number

590
00:24:35,190 --> 00:24:33,360
saying uh a mile a second you know

591
00:24:37,750 --> 00:24:35,200
something like that i just

592
00:24:39,110 --> 00:24:37,760
just didn't know i just had no idea it

593
00:24:42,630 --> 00:24:39,120
was more like uh

594
00:24:46,149 --> 00:24:42,640
you know 20 miles in a split second but

595
00:24:48,470 --> 00:24:46,159
um you know i i couldn't i couldn't

596
00:24:49,510 --> 00:24:48,480
really estimate it was extraordinarily

597
00:24:53,269 --> 00:24:49,520
fast

598
00:24:56,310 --> 00:24:53,279
um and uh so

599
00:24:57,110 --> 00:24:56,320
and also did it stop fast too yes right

600
00:25:00,230 --> 00:24:57,120
away just

601
00:25:03,190 --> 00:25:00,240
stopped on a dime and uh

602
00:25:05,269 --> 00:25:03,200
so and you know i was thinking uh you

603
00:25:06,230 --> 00:25:05,279
know good grief if there's any people in

604
00:25:10,230 --> 00:25:06,240
there they're gonna be

605
00:25:12,830 --> 00:25:10,240
a pancake but from the inertia effect

606
00:25:15,110 --> 00:25:12,840
you know and the other thing too is that

607
00:25:17,590 --> 00:25:15,120
once you know i was a little

608
00:25:20,390 --> 00:25:17,600
i was pretty relaxed uh at the first

609
00:25:23,110 --> 00:25:20,400
part of the call but once the uh

610
00:25:24,230 --> 00:25:23,120
um once i started doing these crazy

611
00:25:26,470 --> 00:25:24,240
things

612
00:25:28,070 --> 00:25:26,480
i began to get a little nervous about it

613
00:25:31,590 --> 00:25:28,080
and uh it creeped me

614
00:25:35,190 --> 00:25:31,600
out a little bit but i also wondered if

615
00:25:37,029 --> 00:25:35,200
uh because it acted so crazy

616
00:25:39,830 --> 00:25:37,039
uh after i started looking at it with

617
00:25:42,710 --> 00:25:39,840
radar it was almost as if

618
00:25:44,630 --> 00:25:42,720
you know you know that these things were

619
00:25:45,830 --> 00:25:44,640
knowing i was looking at it and i was

620
00:25:48,789 --> 00:25:45,840
expecting

621
00:25:50,630 --> 00:25:48,799
i mean i was visualizing the radar

622
00:25:53,990 --> 00:25:50,640
getting zapped with some

623
00:25:57,590 --> 00:25:54,000
you know ultra high energy beam and

624
00:26:00,149 --> 00:25:57,600
you know my radar console you know just

625
00:26:01,269 --> 00:26:00,159
going up into fight flames you know and

626
00:26:03,269 --> 00:26:01,279
so i was

627
00:26:04,870 --> 00:26:03,279
thinking about that i literally was

628
00:26:09,830 --> 00:26:04,880
thinking about that

629
00:26:12,870 --> 00:26:09,840
that uh that uh they could easily have

630
00:26:15,350 --> 00:26:12,880
you know whatever it was um

631
00:26:18,470 --> 00:26:15,360
uh i mean this was during the gulf war

632
00:26:21,190 --> 00:26:18,480
too or right after and i know that

633
00:26:23,669 --> 00:26:21,200
basically i was i had a radar lock on

634
00:26:24,710 --> 00:26:23,679
these objects i know that the military

635
00:26:28,070 --> 00:26:24,720
could

636
00:26:29,590 --> 00:26:28,080
look at uh at uh you know see radars

637
00:26:30,870 --> 00:26:29,600
that were locked under aircraft and they

638
00:26:34,470 --> 00:26:30,880
would blow them up

639
00:26:36,230 --> 00:26:34,480
uh these radar sites so um obviously

640
00:26:39,110 --> 00:26:36,240
whether military or not

641
00:26:40,070 --> 00:26:39,120
i knew that they were looking at me now

642
00:26:43,590 --> 00:26:40,080
um

643
00:26:45,430 --> 00:26:43,600
the thing is is they made no uh whatever

644
00:26:47,029 --> 00:26:45,440
these things were they made no attempt

645
00:26:49,350 --> 00:26:47,039
to hide themselves

646
00:26:51,190 --> 00:26:49,360
uh they were like saying hey we're here

647
00:26:51,990 --> 00:26:51,200
look at us you know and that's what it

648
00:26:55,590 --> 00:26:52,000
seemed like that

649
00:26:57,830 --> 00:26:55,600
whole time uh both on radar and by

650
00:26:58,789 --> 00:26:57,840
uh the people that were seeing it on the

651
00:27:02,230 --> 00:26:58,799
ground

652
00:27:05,269 --> 00:27:02,240
um and uh but

653
00:27:09,269 --> 00:27:05,279
the the unusual thing was

654
00:27:11,430 --> 00:27:09,279
that the way they uh were moving

655
00:27:13,190 --> 00:27:11,440
it seemed like they had a direction in

656
00:27:14,630 --> 00:27:13,200
mind of which way were they

657
00:27:17,029 --> 00:27:14,640
they were heading they took their own

658
00:27:19,350 --> 00:27:17,039
sweet time about getting there

659
00:27:20,149 --> 00:27:19,360
and kind of looking around it seemed

660
00:27:23,750 --> 00:27:20,159
like they were

661
00:27:27,029 --> 00:27:23,760
obviously intelligently controlled

662
00:27:29,990 --> 00:27:27,039
and they were basically looking around

663
00:27:30,870 --> 00:27:30,000
and but they had a general direction in

664
00:27:33,269 --> 00:27:30,880
mind which is

665
00:27:35,029 --> 00:27:33,279
southwest even though they zigzagged a

666
00:27:36,310 --> 00:27:35,039
bit you know on the way down there now

667
00:27:38,070 --> 00:27:36,320
when i saw them

668
00:27:40,549 --> 00:27:38,080
they went straight due west out to the

669
00:27:43,830 --> 00:27:40,559
middle lake michigan then straight south

670
00:27:47,269 --> 00:27:43,840
and once they got down to the

671
00:27:50,470 --> 00:27:47,279
uh lower part of lake michigan where the

672
00:27:54,310 --> 00:27:50,480
only open water in the great lakes

673
00:27:58,389 --> 00:27:54,320
uh happened to be um and this would be

674
00:28:00,630 --> 00:27:58,399
north east of chicago um

675
00:28:02,470 --> 00:28:00,640
they were in the middle and they were

676
00:28:03,269 --> 00:28:02,480
clustered together and there were

677
00:28:06,630 --> 00:28:03,279
literally

678
00:28:07,510 --> 00:28:06,640
dozens of them and uh so not just the

679
00:28:09,510 --> 00:28:07,520
three and four

680
00:28:11,590 --> 00:28:09,520
there were dozens of them i don't know

681
00:28:14,870 --> 00:28:11,600
where they all came from

682
00:28:17,590 --> 00:28:14,880
uh but uh but they looked like it was

683
00:28:18,710 --> 00:28:17,600
crazy they uh most of them were hovering

684
00:28:20,389 --> 00:28:18,720
in place

685
00:28:22,549 --> 00:28:20,399
and every once in a while and and

686
00:28:23,269 --> 00:28:22,559
actually there were a couple that were

687
00:28:25,190 --> 00:28:23,279
weaving

688
00:28:27,590 --> 00:28:25,200
around the other ones that were

689
00:28:30,630 --> 00:28:27,600
stationary i could see that

690
00:28:32,630 --> 00:28:30,640
um and uh so uh

691
00:28:34,070 --> 00:28:32,640
but the fact that they were right over

692
00:28:37,110 --> 00:28:34,080
open water

693
00:28:38,870 --> 00:28:37,120
uh they were at about 10 000 feet or so

694
00:28:40,870 --> 00:28:38,880
uh they were probably some that were

695
00:28:42,549 --> 00:28:40,880
lower than that but i couldn't see that

696
00:28:45,029 --> 00:28:42,559
because it was at the uh

697
00:28:46,630 --> 00:28:45,039
even though the radar is literal the

698
00:28:49,269 --> 00:28:46,640
radar was literally

699
00:28:52,070 --> 00:28:49,279
three miles from the uh from lake

700
00:28:55,350 --> 00:28:52,080
michigan i would not be able to see

701
00:28:58,389 --> 00:28:55,360
uh due to the trees um you know

702
00:29:01,830 --> 00:28:58,399
uh uh that to too low

703
00:29:02,549 --> 00:29:01,840
down at that latitude uh but uh but i

704
00:29:04,630 --> 00:29:02,559
could

705
00:29:06,630 --> 00:29:04,640
i gotta i gotta look it back up and see

706
00:29:08,630 --> 00:29:06,640
what the lowest i would be able to see

707
00:29:12,149 --> 00:29:08,640
at that level would be

708
00:29:15,350 --> 00:29:12,159
uh but um but one thing i did notice

709
00:29:19,110 --> 00:29:15,360
is that they did not

710
00:29:21,110 --> 00:29:19,120
uh like for instance an airliner would

711
00:29:23,750 --> 00:29:21,120
of course stay at a certain altitude

712
00:29:26,870 --> 00:29:23,760
above the earth the ground

713
00:29:27,510 --> 00:29:26,880
uh uh these things went in straight

714
00:29:29,669 --> 00:29:27,520
lines

715
00:29:31,590 --> 00:29:29,679
it didn't care if it was uh the earth

716
00:29:32,230 --> 00:29:31,600
was curving out from underneath it or

717
00:29:34,310 --> 00:29:32,240
not

718
00:29:36,470 --> 00:29:34,320
they went in a straight line so when i

719
00:29:38,070 --> 00:29:36,480
saw it at one place

720
00:29:40,710 --> 00:29:38,080
when it jumped to the other place

721
00:29:41,669 --> 00:29:40,720
further south where the earth was kind

722
00:29:48,149 --> 00:29:41,679
of

723
00:29:49,110 --> 00:29:48,159
underneath it they were still they were

724
00:29:51,430 --> 00:29:49,120
at an increased

725
00:29:52,549 --> 00:29:51,440
altitude meaning they went in a straight

726
00:29:55,269 --> 00:29:52,559
line

727
00:29:55,750 --> 00:29:55,279
uh regardless of the curvature of the

728
00:29:58,149 --> 00:29:55,760
earth

729
00:29:59,190 --> 00:29:58,159
so so it had nothing to do with gravity

730
00:30:00,789 --> 00:29:59,200
it seems like

731
00:30:02,789 --> 00:30:00,799
almost had nothing to do with the

732
00:30:04,389 --> 00:30:02,799
curvature of the earth now they they

733
00:30:05,830 --> 00:30:04,399
they said they want to go in a straight

734
00:30:09,430 --> 00:30:05,840
line they did

735
00:30:13,269 --> 00:30:09,440
you know so uh yeah it is

736
00:30:16,389 --> 00:30:13,279
and um so

737
00:30:19,669 --> 00:30:16,399
uh so uh but i i

738
00:30:20,630 --> 00:30:19,679
actually watched these things for about

739
00:30:23,350 --> 00:30:20,640
two hours

740
00:30:24,149 --> 00:30:23,360
and they were there and i just can't

741
00:30:25,590 --> 00:30:24,159
think of

742
00:30:27,269 --> 00:30:25,600
you know of course a lot of people said

743
00:30:29,269 --> 00:30:27,279
oh it's gotta be military but

744
00:30:30,950 --> 00:30:29,279
you know honestly military why would

745
00:30:31,990 --> 00:30:30,960
military be out in the middle of lake

746
00:30:34,549 --> 00:30:32,000
michigan

747
00:30:35,430 --> 00:30:34,559
for two hours hovering there you know

748
00:30:37,830 --> 00:30:35,440
and uh

749
00:30:38,630 --> 00:30:37,840
yeah that's always one of the questions

750
00:30:41,350 --> 00:30:38,640
yeah that

751
00:30:42,870 --> 00:30:41,360
that you definitely would have to ask

752
00:30:45,269 --> 00:30:42,880
another one is uh

753
00:30:46,789 --> 00:30:45,279
you know uh why would they do that and

754
00:30:49,269 --> 00:30:46,799
not

755
00:30:51,750 --> 00:30:49,279
you know alert people uh that they were

756
00:30:54,070 --> 00:30:51,760
doing this exercise if they were

757
00:30:55,350 --> 00:30:54,080
and and one question i had for you are

758
00:30:58,310 --> 00:30:55,360
there do you get

759
00:30:59,110 --> 00:30:58,320
to see actually transponders or not when

760
00:31:01,830 --> 00:30:59,120
you're not with

761
00:31:03,110 --> 00:31:01,840
no no no so you have and another thing

762
00:31:05,110 --> 00:31:03,120
i'm pulling this up does

763
00:31:06,789 --> 00:31:05,120
does your weather radar screen look

764
00:31:10,950 --> 00:31:06,799
something like this

765
00:31:13,430 --> 00:31:10,960
uh it was uh um

766
00:31:15,110 --> 00:31:13,440
well yeah it was similar to that now

767
00:31:18,149 --> 00:31:15,120
that looks more of a digital

768
00:31:20,870 --> 00:31:18,159
um uh way now you have to remember

769
00:31:22,230 --> 00:31:20,880
our radar was uh the way the doppler

770
00:31:25,909 --> 00:31:22,240
radars work now or

771
00:31:29,029 --> 00:31:25,919
or the we call the wsr 88d

772
00:31:31,590 --> 00:31:29,039
nexrad radar um uh

773
00:31:32,470 --> 00:31:31,600
my radar dish was about six feet in

774
00:31:35,509 --> 00:31:32,480
width

775
00:31:36,630 --> 00:31:35,519
the ones now today are 30 feet 35 feet

776
00:31:40,070 --> 00:31:36,640
in width

777
00:31:41,269 --> 00:31:40,080
but what they do to get a

778
00:31:41,990 --> 00:31:41,279
three-dimensional picture of the

779
00:31:44,149 --> 00:31:42,000
atmosphere

780
00:31:45,110 --> 00:31:44,159
is they go around once at about a half a

781
00:31:47,269 --> 00:31:45,120
degree

782
00:31:48,950 --> 00:31:47,279
which is the normal what we used to do

783
00:31:51,830 --> 00:31:48,960
with a 74c

784
00:31:53,830 --> 00:31:51,840
radar was go around at a half a degree

785
00:31:54,950 --> 00:31:53,840
above altitude believe it or not at just

786
00:31:57,750 --> 00:31:54,960
a half a degree

787
00:31:59,029 --> 00:31:57,760
altitude is enough to where you know you

788
00:32:01,190 --> 00:31:59,039
get over to

789
00:32:03,110 --> 00:32:01,200
chicago as far as chicago and you're a

790
00:32:03,909 --> 00:32:03,120
couple thousand feet off the ground is

791
00:32:05,669 --> 00:32:03,919
that right wow

792
00:32:08,549 --> 00:32:05,679
oh yeah yeah now there is a little bit

793
00:32:11,029 --> 00:32:08,559
of uh sub refraction there is a little

794
00:32:15,190 --> 00:32:11,039
bit of refraction around the beam that

795
00:32:16,789 --> 00:32:15,200
the the radar beam does go around

796
00:32:18,549 --> 00:32:16,799
the curvature of the earth it's just

797
00:32:21,269 --> 00:32:18,559
like looking at a sunset

798
00:32:23,269 --> 00:32:21,279
where you see the sunset is you're not

799
00:32:24,310 --> 00:32:23,279
really looking directly at the sun in a

800
00:32:26,549 --> 00:32:24,320
direct line

801
00:32:28,310 --> 00:32:26,559
the sun is actually below the horizon it

802
00:32:30,389 --> 00:32:28,320
just doesn't look like and it

803
00:32:31,509 --> 00:32:30,399
looks like it's above the and that's

804
00:32:34,230 --> 00:32:31,519
just

805
00:32:35,909 --> 00:32:34,240
refraction that's all it is so the radar

806
00:32:38,070 --> 00:32:35,919
beam acts the same way

807
00:32:39,190 --> 00:32:38,080
now at different different uh weather

808
00:32:42,470 --> 00:32:39,200
conditions it

809
00:32:44,630 --> 00:32:42,480
will either super refract and

810
00:32:46,230 --> 00:32:44,640
you get anomalous propagation or

811
00:32:48,070 --> 00:32:46,240
basically you would start seeing

812
00:32:49,669 --> 00:32:48,080
a lot of ground clutter and you'd say

813
00:32:52,470 --> 00:32:49,679
and ground clutter looks like

814
00:32:54,070 --> 00:32:52,480
uh uh it would look like heavy rain on

815
00:32:54,789 --> 00:32:54,080
the ground everywhere and it would

816
00:32:58,070 --> 00:32:54,799
usually be

817
00:33:01,029 --> 00:32:58,080
very close to the radar um uh

818
00:33:02,070 --> 00:33:01,039
but uh a lot of people tried to explain

819
00:33:05,269 --> 00:33:02,080
that it was

820
00:33:07,909 --> 00:33:05,279
anomalous propagation but you don't see

821
00:33:08,710 --> 00:33:07,919
anomalous propagation looking like dots

822
00:33:10,789 --> 00:33:08,720
you don't look

823
00:33:11,830 --> 00:33:10,799
you know you they have the as i said in

824
00:33:14,870 --> 00:33:11,840
the graphic

825
00:33:18,230 --> 00:33:14,880
they don't they're these were

826
00:33:21,110 --> 00:33:18,240
uh uh these are high reflect reflective

827
00:33:23,190 --> 00:33:21,120
and they were pegging the top of the of

828
00:33:25,430 --> 00:33:23,200
the amplitude chart meaning that the

829
00:33:26,789 --> 00:33:25,440
a lot of energy was coming right back

830
00:33:30,070 --> 00:33:26,799
the way the radar works

831
00:33:33,110 --> 00:33:30,080
is uh a

832
00:33:36,230 --> 00:33:33,120
few thousand pulses go out every second

833
00:33:38,549 --> 00:33:36,240
and uh and they're short pulses

834
00:33:40,389 --> 00:33:38,559
uh where the radar is actually listening

835
00:33:41,509 --> 00:33:40,399
more than they're sending out an em

836
00:33:44,710 --> 00:33:41,519
radiation

837
00:33:45,509 --> 00:33:44,720
uh to to listen so it's it's it's pulse

838
00:33:49,029 --> 00:33:45,519
is going out

839
00:33:51,430 --> 00:33:49,039
very fast um but they're listening for

840
00:33:51,990 --> 00:33:51,440
the echo to come back at light speed so

841
00:33:55,190 --> 00:33:52,000
it's a light

842
00:33:58,149 --> 00:33:55,200
speed thing uh you know and uh

843
00:33:59,190 --> 00:33:58,159
so but it was but the sweeping part of

844
00:34:00,870 --> 00:33:59,200
me the sweeping

845
00:34:03,430 --> 00:34:00,880
how long does it take you know i mean

846
00:34:05,430 --> 00:34:03,440
how are you able to determine speeds and

847
00:34:07,029 --> 00:34:05,440
and all that because how long does a

848
00:34:10,629 --> 00:34:07,039
sweep take

849
00:34:13,669 --> 00:34:10,639
well i i took it off the automatic mode

850
00:34:14,230 --> 00:34:13,679
oh i see yeah with with the radars back

851
00:34:17,430 --> 00:34:14,240
then

852
00:34:19,829 --> 00:34:17,440
uh we had to if we wanted to look at one

853
00:34:20,629 --> 00:34:19,839
thunderstorm we would see if there was

854
00:34:23,669 --> 00:34:20,639
hail in there

855
00:34:24,790 --> 00:34:23,679
see if there was any uh possible tornado

856
00:34:27,589 --> 00:34:24,800
or something like that

857
00:34:29,349 --> 00:34:27,599
we had to take it off automatic rotation

858
00:34:30,310 --> 00:34:29,359
mode and we would point it at a

859
00:34:32,230 --> 00:34:30,320
thunderstorm

860
00:34:33,990 --> 00:34:32,240
and we would use another crank we had

861
00:34:36,790 --> 00:34:34,000
two cranks one to

862
00:34:38,869 --> 00:34:36,800
actually be able to go wave the radar

863
00:34:41,990 --> 00:34:38,879
and the horizontal back and forth

864
00:34:45,190 --> 00:34:42,000
and another one to to crank the radar

865
00:34:48,230 --> 00:34:45,200
uh both uh up and down in a vertical

866
00:34:51,669 --> 00:34:48,240
spot so it's like if you can imagine

867
00:34:54,629 --> 00:34:51,679
uh unlike a faa radar where they do

868
00:34:57,190 --> 00:34:54,639
the entire atmosphere in one sweep uh

869
00:35:01,190 --> 00:34:57,200
we're just a little cone at that period

870
00:35:03,109 --> 00:35:01,200
um and uh so uh whereas they're using

871
00:35:06,390 --> 00:35:03,119
like a big floodlight that

872
00:35:09,190 --> 00:35:06,400
is like you know 90 degrees

873
00:35:09,589 --> 00:35:09,200
wide and going around they really can't

874
00:35:12,069 --> 00:35:09,599
see

875
00:35:13,670 --> 00:35:12,079
the altitude of objects without a

876
00:35:16,950 --> 00:35:13,680
transponder

877
00:35:18,550 --> 00:35:16,960
now uh now i we could our radar beam was

878
00:35:21,589 --> 00:35:18,560
more direct it was more

879
00:35:25,750 --> 00:35:21,599
uh it was narrower and uh

880
00:35:28,069 --> 00:35:25,760
at that time um you know we only cared

881
00:35:28,950 --> 00:35:28,079
how much rain was falling at the ground

882
00:35:32,230 --> 00:35:28,960
level

883
00:35:34,390 --> 00:35:32,240
and so uh uh but uh we had to look for

884
00:35:36,790 --> 00:35:34,400
hail up at the top of the uh

885
00:35:37,829 --> 00:35:36,800
the thunder heads to whether to or not

886
00:35:40,470 --> 00:35:37,839
to issue

887
00:35:41,829 --> 00:35:40,480
uh severe thunderstorm warnings for that

888
00:35:45,670 --> 00:35:41,839
and um

889
00:35:48,550 --> 00:35:45,680
and so uh so so we had the ability

890
00:35:51,190 --> 00:35:48,560
to have to read the signatures of the

891
00:35:52,950 --> 00:35:51,200
radar to know what we're looking at how

892
00:35:55,589 --> 00:35:52,960
heavy is the rain

893
00:35:57,670 --> 00:35:55,599
shows one signature uh whether there's

894
00:36:00,310 --> 00:35:57,680
hail shows another signature

895
00:36:01,910 --> 00:36:00,320
whether it's anomalous propagation or

896
00:36:04,950 --> 00:36:01,920
ground clutter

897
00:36:07,910 --> 00:36:04,960
has another signature on that

898
00:36:09,109 --> 00:36:07,920
amplitude chart and if you're looking at

899
00:36:13,190 --> 00:36:09,119
an airplane

900
00:36:16,790 --> 00:36:13,200
it has a different signature um and so

901
00:36:20,069 --> 00:36:16,800
these had the signature of an aircraft

902
00:36:23,349 --> 00:36:20,079
and not a not

903
00:36:27,270 --> 00:36:23,359
a uh uh you know uh a

904
00:36:27,589 --> 00:36:27,280
an aircraft that has any kind of ability

905
00:36:30,710 --> 00:36:27,599
to

906
00:36:34,069 --> 00:36:30,720
stealth

907
00:36:37,349 --> 00:36:34,079
capability uh i mean they were as

908
00:36:39,670 --> 00:36:37,359
about as reflective as can be um

909
00:36:41,670 --> 00:36:39,680
i mean literally they they were they

910
00:36:44,790 --> 00:36:41,680
were flying tin cans you know

911
00:36:46,310 --> 00:36:44,800
that's all i could say yeah you know how

912
00:36:49,750 --> 00:36:46,320
many witnesses

913
00:36:53,109 --> 00:36:49,760
do you think there were overall um

914
00:36:55,670 --> 00:36:53,119
and was there any other radar

915
00:36:56,790 --> 00:36:55,680
information faa or anything did you ever

916
00:36:57,430 --> 00:36:56,800
find out if there was any other

917
00:37:00,470 --> 00:36:57,440
information

918
00:37:00,950 --> 00:37:00,480
of people recording this i uh actually

919
00:37:03,990 --> 00:37:00,960
did

920
00:37:05,030 --> 00:37:04,000
we had a hotline we were at the muskegon

921
00:37:08,069 --> 00:37:05,040
county airport

922
00:37:09,829 --> 00:37:08,079
and i had a lot a hotline to the uh you

923
00:37:10,950 --> 00:37:09,839
just pick up the phone and immediately i

924
00:37:14,470 --> 00:37:10,960
go to the tower

925
00:37:16,310 --> 00:37:14,480
and uh so the faa we we were

926
00:37:18,630 --> 00:37:16,320
us government personnel they were

927
00:37:22,150 --> 00:37:18,640
federal employees as well of course

928
00:37:25,270 --> 00:37:22,160
and so uh uh so we worked together

929
00:37:26,390 --> 00:37:25,280
really well um and so i called and told

930
00:37:28,150 --> 00:37:26,400
them what happened

931
00:37:29,510 --> 00:37:28,160
and i said we we're getting a lot of

932
00:37:30,870 --> 00:37:29,520
phone calls about

933
00:37:33,750 --> 00:37:30,880
or ottawa county is getting a lot of

934
00:37:36,230 --> 00:37:33,760
phone calls about lights in the sky

935
00:37:37,109 --> 00:37:36,240
um and i could actually see it on my

936
00:37:39,589 --> 00:37:37,119
radar

937
00:37:40,150 --> 00:37:39,599
did you see anything to the south of you

938
00:37:42,550 --> 00:37:40,160
and he

939
00:37:43,190 --> 00:37:42,560
and the faa air traffic controller at

940
00:37:46,069 --> 00:37:43,200
that point

941
00:37:48,470 --> 00:37:46,079
said well he said yeah i saw three

942
00:37:50,470 --> 00:37:48,480
aircraft in formation

943
00:37:51,589 --> 00:37:50,480
but for some reason i couldn't see it on

944
00:37:53,589 --> 00:37:51,599
my radar

945
00:37:54,790 --> 00:37:53,599
which means they had no transponder on

946
00:37:58,470 --> 00:37:54,800
it oh i see

947
00:38:01,829 --> 00:37:58,480
and uh and so uh

948
00:38:05,510 --> 00:38:01,839
and so that was it uh

949
00:38:07,109 --> 00:38:05,520
i had to uh there was a scientist from

950
00:38:09,109 --> 00:38:07,119
west michigan university it was a

951
00:38:10,710 --> 00:38:09,119
paranormal scientist he came up and he

952
00:38:13,190 --> 00:38:10,720
wanted to interview us

953
00:38:13,990 --> 00:38:13,200
and i had to borrow an overhead

954
00:38:16,870 --> 00:38:14,000
projector

955
00:38:18,790 --> 00:38:16,880
it's the 90s we didn't have the internet

956
00:38:22,069 --> 00:38:18,800
and all that yet was that like

957
00:38:24,710 --> 00:38:22,079
mike walsh uh that that was the reporter

958
00:38:25,510 --> 00:38:24,720
oh i see this this his name was dr

959
00:38:28,710 --> 00:38:25,520
swartz

960
00:38:31,190 --> 00:38:28,720
swords and sports yes swords yes

961
00:38:32,710 --> 00:38:31,200
dr sorts and so he came up and i gave

962
00:38:35,829 --> 00:38:32,720
him a presentation

963
00:38:38,790 --> 00:38:35,839
with my bosses graces and

964
00:38:39,430 --> 00:38:38,800
uh and i gave a presentation with with

965
00:38:43,270 --> 00:38:39,440
my boss

966
00:38:45,589 --> 00:38:43,280
and dr swords and um

967
00:38:47,510 --> 00:38:45,599
and so anyway when i went over to get

968
00:38:48,870 --> 00:38:47,520
the overhead projector i had to borrow

969
00:38:50,950 --> 00:38:48,880
one from the faa

970
00:38:52,310 --> 00:38:50,960
control tower they had one in their

971
00:38:54,950 --> 00:38:52,320
storeroom so

972
00:38:57,030 --> 00:38:54,960
but as i was uh going up the elevator in

973
00:39:00,870 --> 00:38:57,040
the uh faa control room

974
00:39:04,150 --> 00:39:00,880
uh faa control elevator um

975
00:39:06,150 --> 00:39:04,160
i told the you know i'm young i was

976
00:39:09,750 --> 00:39:06,160
excited about what i saw

977
00:39:12,390 --> 00:39:09,760
um i asked the faa person on the

978
00:39:13,829 --> 00:39:12,400
on the uh in the elevator i said i'm the

979
00:39:17,510 --> 00:39:13,839
one that

980
00:39:20,870 --> 00:39:17,520
was the ufo radar operator

981
00:39:21,670 --> 00:39:20,880
uh and i said what do you think and he

982
00:39:23,589 --> 00:39:21,680
looked at me

983
00:39:25,910 --> 00:39:23,599
dead in the eye and he had was

984
00:39:28,950 --> 00:39:25,920
completely expressionless and said

985
00:39:32,230 --> 00:39:28,960
i can't talk about it

986
00:39:33,990 --> 00:39:32,240
and it was kind of ominous and uh

987
00:39:36,550 --> 00:39:34,000
you know and i found that later when i

988
00:39:40,790 --> 00:39:36,560
was uh i worked at the uh

989
00:39:42,069 --> 00:39:40,800
faa for not not as an employee of the fa

990
00:39:45,190 --> 00:39:42,079
but as the

991
00:39:46,790 --> 00:39:45,200
national weather service employee the

992
00:39:50,069 --> 00:39:46,800
faa does

993
00:39:53,230 --> 00:39:50,079
air traffic controllers at the faa

994
00:39:56,069 --> 00:39:53,240
do employ weather service employ

995
00:39:57,589 --> 00:39:56,079
meteorologists and i worked at one for

996
00:40:01,510 --> 00:39:57,599
about 30 days

997
00:40:02,630 --> 00:40:01,520
and uh before they uh my boss when i

998
00:40:05,990 --> 00:40:02,640
first

999
00:40:08,710 --> 00:40:06,000
the building

1000
00:40:10,550 --> 00:40:08,720
and there's then there's another first

1001
00:40:12,150 --> 00:40:10,560
you got to get in the gate

1002
00:40:14,390 --> 00:40:12,160
you know and then you got to get into

1003
00:40:15,510 --> 00:40:14,400
the building and then there's a room in

1004
00:40:17,829 --> 00:40:15,520
the center

1005
00:40:19,430 --> 00:40:17,839
um and you can't get in there with us

1006
00:40:23,109 --> 00:40:19,440
without the proper

1007
00:40:24,710 --> 00:40:23,119
uh keycard identification and before you

1008
00:40:27,670 --> 00:40:24,720
opened the door he said

1009
00:40:30,069 --> 00:40:27,680
whatever you see and whatever you hear

1010
00:40:33,270 --> 00:40:30,079
you cannot mention outside this office

1011
00:40:36,950 --> 00:40:33,280
and outside this room and so

1012
00:40:38,150 --> 00:40:36,960
never have never will uh and but i did

1013
00:40:41,510 --> 00:40:38,160
joke i said

1014
00:40:43,910 --> 00:40:41,520
you mean like what you see ufos or

1015
00:40:47,910 --> 00:40:43,920
something and he just kind of

1016
00:40:51,589 --> 00:40:47,920
uh shrugged you know like

1017
00:40:55,109 --> 00:40:51,599
well you know so

1018
00:40:56,550 --> 00:40:55,119
wow and uh so then he opened the door

1019
00:40:57,430 --> 00:40:56,560
and i couldn't can't say anything else

1020
00:41:00,710 --> 00:40:57,440
about it

1021
00:41:04,069 --> 00:41:00,720
so we're all getting trouble so i i i

1022
00:41:06,230 --> 00:41:04,079
uh yeah well that's the way they are

1023
00:41:07,109 --> 00:41:06,240
yeah i know the you know i think of the

1024
00:41:08,230 --> 00:41:07,119
o'hare

1025
00:41:10,470 --> 00:41:08,240
case i don't know if you ever heard of

1026
00:41:13,750 --> 00:41:10,480
that uh gate c17

1027
00:41:14,550 --> 00:41:13,760
2006 i think it was uh where that ufo

1028
00:41:16,470 --> 00:41:14,560
was right over

1029
00:41:17,750 --> 00:41:16,480
the tarmac and then shot up and left a

1030
00:41:20,790 --> 00:41:17,760
hole in the clouds

1031
00:41:21,349 --> 00:41:20,800
oh yeah and faa you know they cannot you

1032
00:41:22,790 --> 00:41:21,359
know

1033
00:41:24,710 --> 00:41:22,800
there's no word that comes out of the

1034
00:41:25,510 --> 00:41:24,720
faa when it comes to these no no and

1035
00:41:28,710 --> 00:41:25,520
even the guy

1036
00:41:30,870 --> 00:41:28,720
said i remember him saying specifically

1037
00:41:31,990 --> 00:41:30,880
even if i did see it i wouldn't say

1038
00:41:35,510 --> 00:41:32,000
anything about it

1039
00:41:38,390 --> 00:41:35,520
and that is a true statement they won't

1040
00:41:38,790 --> 00:41:38,400
i wonder why i wonder why because it's

1041
00:41:41,109 --> 00:41:38,800
there

1042
00:41:42,309 --> 00:41:41,119
may be things in the sky that they have

1043
00:41:44,790 --> 00:41:42,319
no control of

1044
00:41:47,109 --> 00:41:44,800
and could be a safety issue it's a

1045
00:41:50,230 --> 00:41:47,119
possibility i have no idea

1046
00:41:52,390 --> 00:41:50,240
nothing was ever explained to me um

1047
00:41:53,670 --> 00:41:52,400
you know nor you know and that's the

1048
00:41:57,670 --> 00:41:53,680
truth uh

1049
00:42:00,150 --> 00:41:57,680
you know but uh um i don't know i didn't

1050
00:42:02,069 --> 00:42:00,160
the thing about being a scientist is is

1051
00:42:05,190 --> 00:42:02,079
i really did not want

1052
00:42:08,870 --> 00:42:05,200
anybody to know about this uh

1053
00:42:10,950 --> 00:42:08,880
i was initially excited about it but

1054
00:42:12,069 --> 00:42:10,960
once i saw the reactions from other

1055
00:42:15,430 --> 00:42:12,079
scientists

1056
00:42:20,470 --> 00:42:18,710
i i was like no i'm

1057
00:42:22,630 --> 00:42:20,480
i'm not gonna say anything anymore about

1058
00:42:26,069 --> 00:42:22,640
this how do you feel now

1059
00:42:27,990 --> 00:42:26,079
uh well i feel vindicated all these uh

1060
00:42:29,589 --> 00:42:28,000
navy people are coming out and saying

1061
00:42:30,790 --> 00:42:29,599
yeah we're seeing them every day we go

1062
00:42:34,150 --> 00:42:30,800
out and fly

1063
00:42:35,109 --> 00:42:34,160
and so and the thing is the radar

1064
00:42:37,430 --> 00:42:35,119
operators

1065
00:42:39,109 --> 00:42:37,440
and although they haven't they haven't

1066
00:42:41,589 --> 00:42:39,119
interviewed any radar operators that

1067
00:42:44,550 --> 00:42:41,599
i've seen yet in the navy

1068
00:42:47,829 --> 00:42:44,560
but but the reports coming out are

1069
00:42:50,390 --> 00:42:47,839
exactly the same as what i was saying

1070
00:42:51,510 --> 00:42:50,400
30 years ago about what these things

1071
00:42:54,470 --> 00:42:51,520
were doing

1072
00:42:56,230 --> 00:42:54,480
yeah and so i do feel vindicated about

1073
00:42:58,309 --> 00:42:56,240
this because it was a bit

1074
00:42:59,750 --> 00:42:58,319
you know i felt like i was losing

1075
00:43:01,829 --> 00:42:59,760
credibility

1076
00:43:03,829 --> 00:43:01,839
if i talked about this and as a

1077
00:43:07,510 --> 00:43:03,839
scientist you do not want to

1078
00:43:11,030 --> 00:43:07,520
lose credibility sure and uh i um

1079
00:43:11,990 --> 00:43:11,040
uh and and even with people and even

1080
00:43:15,270 --> 00:43:12,000
today

1081
00:43:18,470 --> 00:43:15,280
uh you know i mentioned uh

1082
00:43:19,750 --> 00:43:18,480
i was doing this podcast and that

1083
00:43:21,750 --> 00:43:19,760
program and and so

1084
00:43:23,349 --> 00:43:21,760
and there's there's people that make

1085
00:43:30,150 --> 00:43:23,359
jokes but

1086
00:43:33,109 --> 00:43:30,160
uh in the weather service

1087
00:43:35,109 --> 00:43:33,119
they weren't joking around they just you

1088
00:43:36,309 --> 00:43:35,119
know they're scientists they just look

1089
00:43:39,829 --> 00:43:36,319
at you like

1090
00:43:41,750 --> 00:43:39,839
you're you know you know

1091
00:43:42,950 --> 00:43:41,760
i don't want to talk about it all right

1092
00:43:44,630 --> 00:43:42,960
so that

1093
00:43:46,550 --> 00:43:44,640
that uh there's a couple of questions

1094
00:43:50,230 --> 00:43:46,560
that came in but i'd like to ask them

1095
00:43:52,829 --> 00:43:50,240
for these people here but that that just

1096
00:43:55,349 --> 00:43:52,839
that that baffles me just because

1097
00:43:56,309 --> 00:43:55,359
wouldn't wouldn't you want to have an

1098
00:43:58,470 --> 00:43:56,319
answer

1099
00:44:00,150 --> 00:43:58,480
you know you see something like that

1100
00:44:02,069 --> 00:44:00,160
wouldn't any scientists want to have an

1101
00:44:04,790 --> 00:44:02,079
answer with what you experienced

1102
00:44:05,829 --> 00:44:04,800
absolutely and i and i you don't think

1103
00:44:07,910 --> 00:44:05,839
that i haven't

1104
00:44:09,030 --> 00:44:07,920
been thinking about this for 30 years

1105
00:44:12,069 --> 00:44:09,040
and i've

1106
00:44:14,390 --> 00:44:12,079
i have uh in my own time now

1107
00:44:16,150 --> 00:44:14,400
my family has heard all about it you

1108
00:44:18,710 --> 00:44:16,160
know but

1109
00:44:20,950 --> 00:44:18,720
you know and i and actually i have a son

1110
00:44:23,270 --> 00:44:20,960
that's going to georgia tech as a

1111
00:44:24,230 --> 00:44:23,280
and he's a physics major and he wants to

1112
00:44:27,510 --> 00:44:24,240
be an aerospace

1113
00:44:30,630 --> 00:44:27,520
engineer and so uh

1114
00:44:32,390 --> 00:44:30,640
he does not he says do not put my name

1115
00:44:33,829 --> 00:44:32,400
out there with this because i don't i

1116
00:44:36,630 --> 00:44:33,839
want to get a job

1117
00:44:38,870 --> 00:44:36,640
you know so he he does not want to be

1118
00:44:40,390 --> 00:44:38,880
anywhere near this he was he's actually

1119
00:44:42,790 --> 00:44:40,400
skeptical

1120
00:44:44,309 --> 00:44:42,800
uh and i say well well then what do you

1121
00:44:46,069 --> 00:44:44,319
think i saw you know

1122
00:44:47,589 --> 00:44:46,079
and he knows i'm telling the truth i've

1123
00:44:51,990 --> 00:44:47,599
been talking about it

1124
00:44:55,030 --> 00:44:52,000
to the family since for 30 years

1125
00:44:56,150 --> 00:44:55,040
you know uh but uh but i would not talk

1126
00:45:00,550 --> 00:44:56,160
about it

1127
00:45:02,309 --> 00:45:00,560
me headaches

1128
00:45:03,589 --> 00:45:02,319
i would look through poor through the

1129
00:45:06,630 --> 00:45:03,599
radar manuals

1130
00:45:10,470 --> 00:45:06,640
and uh pour through other

1131
00:45:13,990 --> 00:45:10,480
uh stories that were coming out um

1132
00:45:16,390 --> 00:45:14,000
and uh you know i tried to

1133
00:45:19,589 --> 00:45:16,400
uh you know a lot of people would say

1134
00:45:22,870 --> 00:45:19,599
well it's um

1135
00:45:25,670 --> 00:45:22,880
it's a uh you know the the

1136
00:45:27,109 --> 00:45:25,680
uh military aircraft are sending out

1137
00:45:30,470 --> 00:45:27,119
false signals

1138
00:45:33,510 --> 00:45:30,480
radar jamming but it doesn't match up

1139
00:45:36,870 --> 00:45:33,520
then which i almost bought except

1140
00:45:39,750 --> 00:45:36,880
it doesn't match up with uh

1141
00:45:40,309 --> 00:45:39,760
the the police officer's observations

1142
00:45:42,950 --> 00:45:40,319
himself

1143
00:45:44,550 --> 00:45:42,960
and the other people uh the other

1144
00:45:47,670 --> 00:45:44,560
citizens of the county

1145
00:45:49,190 --> 00:45:47,680
uh speaking up so um

1146
00:45:51,349 --> 00:45:49,200
and you have to remember the the

1147
00:45:54,630 --> 00:45:51,359
national weather service is

1148
00:45:58,069 --> 00:45:54,640
a an agency that

1149
00:45:59,349 --> 00:45:58,079
has constant uh communication with the

1150
00:46:01,750 --> 00:45:59,359
media

1151
00:46:03,109 --> 00:46:01,760
so we're not giving any we're not privy

1152
00:46:05,430 --> 00:46:03,119
to anything

1153
00:46:07,510 --> 00:46:05,440
top secret the only thing that's top

1154
00:46:09,190 --> 00:46:07,520
secret with us would be a somebody a

1155
00:46:10,390 --> 00:46:09,200
coworker's social security number and

1156
00:46:13,349 --> 00:46:10,400
that's it

1157
00:46:14,150 --> 00:46:13,359
i mean we we put out all our data out on

1158
00:46:17,589 --> 00:46:14,160
the internet

1159
00:46:21,190 --> 00:46:17,599
it all the raw data goes out

1160
00:46:22,790 --> 00:46:21,200
when i did my shows they

1161
00:46:24,309 --> 00:46:22,800
the only thing the weather service was

1162
00:46:26,150 --> 00:46:24,319
concerned about

1163
00:46:28,069 --> 00:46:26,160
was that they don't want to be the

1164
00:46:31,109 --> 00:46:28,079
weather service did not want to become

1165
00:46:33,910 --> 00:46:31,119
the ufo reporting center you know

1166
00:46:34,230 --> 00:46:33,920
and i can understand that i i really can

1167
00:46:36,150 --> 00:46:34,240
because

1168
00:46:38,230 --> 00:46:36,160
we did have a few drunk guys that would

1169
00:46:42,069 --> 00:46:38,240
see the planet venus and

1170
00:46:42,790 --> 00:46:42,079
you know say it's moving yes when

1171
00:46:44,950 --> 00:46:42,800
they're moving

1172
00:46:46,390 --> 00:46:44,960
uh we have a question up there was each

1173
00:46:49,510 --> 00:46:46,400
target jumbo size

1174
00:46:52,710 --> 00:46:49,520
uh jumbo jet size in your opinion

1175
00:46:55,510 --> 00:46:52,720
uh yeah uh they were uh they had about

1176
00:46:57,349 --> 00:46:55,520
uh you have to realize too is that the

1177
00:47:00,550 --> 00:46:57,359
further away from the radar

1178
00:47:04,150 --> 00:47:00,560
the larger the beam goes that the cone

1179
00:47:06,550 --> 00:47:04,160
goes wider and wider so uh they take up

1180
00:47:08,630 --> 00:47:06,560
less of a space of the cone so the one

1181
00:47:10,790 --> 00:47:08,640
that was closest to the radar

1182
00:47:13,430 --> 00:47:10,800
looked bigger because it took out more

1183
00:47:16,710 --> 00:47:13,440
of the comb but the ones further away

1184
00:47:19,430 --> 00:47:16,720
uh took up less of the of the cone so

1185
00:47:20,309 --> 00:47:19,440
they looked smaller but most likely they

1186
00:47:23,190 --> 00:47:20,319
were the same

1187
00:47:25,990 --> 00:47:23,200
size because when they did move further

1188
00:47:29,109 --> 00:47:26,000
and further away from the radar they did

1189
00:47:30,150 --> 00:47:29,119
seem to have that same getting smaller

1190
00:47:33,990 --> 00:47:30,160
and smaller

1191
00:47:35,109 --> 00:47:34,000
look to it uh and even the jumbo jets

1192
00:47:37,990 --> 00:47:35,119
that i was looking

1193
00:47:38,870 --> 00:47:38,000
that i would look at and spot at o'hare

1194
00:47:41,589 --> 00:47:38,880
airport

1195
00:47:43,430 --> 00:47:41,599
would be pretty small they would be

1196
00:47:45,349 --> 00:47:43,440
pretty weak signals and they would be

1197
00:47:47,349 --> 00:47:45,359
pretty small

1198
00:47:49,910 --> 00:47:47,359
but this this would be the first time

1199
00:47:50,710 --> 00:47:49,920
that i saw something as large as a jumbo

1200
00:47:53,589 --> 00:47:50,720
jet

1201
00:47:55,190 --> 00:47:53,599
uh so close to the radar uh because

1202
00:47:57,109 --> 00:47:55,200
there's just not many

1203
00:47:58,630 --> 00:47:57,119
jet airliners in that area of the

1204
00:48:01,750 --> 00:47:58,640
country uh

1205
00:48:03,510 --> 00:48:01,760
at uh fifteen to thirty thousand feet

1206
00:48:06,069 --> 00:48:03,520
that uh that really

1207
00:48:08,390 --> 00:48:06,079
that are going over our airspace grand

1208
00:48:08,950 --> 00:48:08,400
rapids michigan is the big airport there

1209
00:48:10,950 --> 00:48:08,960
and

1210
00:48:12,230 --> 00:48:10,960
they don't they just don't have jets to

1211
00:48:15,190 --> 00:48:12,240
take off

1212
00:48:16,710 --> 00:48:15,200
but every maybe once in a ha every half

1213
00:48:19,829 --> 00:48:16,720
hour back then

1214
00:48:22,069 --> 00:48:19,839
so uh i knew with the constant flow of

1215
00:48:23,190 --> 00:48:22,079
airplanes going in and out of o'hare

1216
00:48:25,109 --> 00:48:23,200
that i'd be able to see

1217
00:48:28,230 --> 00:48:25,119
something and i did i picked up i could

1218
00:48:31,829 --> 00:48:28,240
pick up the bigger air lanes

1219
00:48:34,230 --> 00:48:31,839
did the national ufo reporting center

1220
00:48:35,670 --> 00:48:34,240
look into this do you know if anyone uh

1221
00:48:38,549 --> 00:48:35,680
if they got involved

1222
00:48:39,430 --> 00:48:38,559
peter david report yeah yeah they did i

1223
00:48:42,870 --> 00:48:39,440
i actually

1224
00:48:45,349 --> 00:48:42,880
there was a number um i didn't

1225
00:48:46,230 --> 00:48:45,359
you know i didn't know uh it was on our

1226
00:48:49,430 --> 00:48:46,240
phone list

1227
00:48:52,069 --> 00:48:49,440
uh on our computer and um

1228
00:48:53,589 --> 00:48:52,079
it it said mufon and that well actually

1229
00:48:56,630 --> 00:48:53,599
it said national

1230
00:48:58,309 --> 00:48:56,640
ufo reporting center yeah and so i

1231
00:49:00,630 --> 00:48:58,319
thought it was part of my job to

1232
00:49:04,549 --> 00:49:00,640
actually call them when i

1233
00:49:08,950 --> 00:49:04,559
saw something so i did left a message

1234
00:49:11,990 --> 00:49:08,960
and um uh in reality it was really

1235
00:49:15,190 --> 00:49:12,000
for us meteorologists to

1236
00:49:18,630 --> 00:49:15,200
tell people that call in with uf reports

1237
00:49:20,309 --> 00:49:18,640
to say you know call this number

1238
00:49:22,390 --> 00:49:20,319
and so did you get in trouble for that

1239
00:49:24,950 --> 00:49:22,400
did you no not at all they they knew

1240
00:49:26,230 --> 00:49:24,960
they they said this number the reason

1241
00:49:28,790 --> 00:49:26,240
why jack

1242
00:49:30,150 --> 00:49:28,800
called them is because it's on our

1243
00:49:33,510 --> 00:49:30,160
computer saying

1244
00:49:36,790 --> 00:49:33,520
national ufo reporting center so

1245
00:49:39,910 --> 00:49:36,800
uh you know i was finding

1246
00:49:42,950 --> 00:49:39,920
what i thought was proper procedure yeah

1247
00:49:45,670 --> 00:49:42,960
you know and uh

1248
00:49:46,069 --> 00:49:45,680
you know as far as i know at that point

1249
00:49:48,150 --> 00:49:46,079
uh

1250
00:49:50,150 --> 00:49:48,160
i was the only one that was the only

1251
00:49:55,270 --> 00:49:50,160
weather service employee to ever

1252
00:49:58,309 --> 00:49:55,280
see uh and report a ufo on radar before

1253
00:50:01,510 --> 00:49:58,319
uh now uh there are a lot of

1254
00:50:02,069 --> 00:50:01,520
weird anomalies on radars now but the

1255
00:50:08,150 --> 00:50:02,079
kind of

1256
00:50:08,630 --> 00:50:08,160
with today's radar with it being digital

1257
00:50:15,349 --> 00:50:08,640
and

1258
00:50:16,950 --> 00:50:15,359
now i i you they're they're automatic

1259
00:50:19,510 --> 00:50:16,960
you can't take them off

1260
00:50:20,790 --> 00:50:19,520
automatic mode you can't really make the

1261
00:50:23,750 --> 00:50:20,800
radar yeah no

1262
00:50:25,670 --> 00:50:23,760
it does it'll go uh it'll go around once

1263
00:50:25,990 --> 00:50:25,680
at a half a degree it'll go up a half a

1264
00:50:29,349 --> 00:50:26,000
degree

1265
00:50:30,710 --> 00:50:29,359
around again go up

1266
00:50:32,069 --> 00:50:30,720
you know and so they get a

1267
00:50:33,910 --> 00:50:32,079
three-dimensional picture of the

1268
00:50:37,270 --> 00:50:33,920
atmosphere that way

1269
00:50:39,510 --> 00:50:37,280
and um and so they're always on the move

1270
00:50:40,549 --> 00:50:39,520
and and then by the time they get way up

1271
00:50:42,870 --> 00:50:40,559
to the top at their

1272
00:50:44,390 --> 00:50:42,880
top angle they just come right back down

1273
00:50:47,190 --> 00:50:44,400
they start all over again

1274
00:50:47,910 --> 00:50:47,200
going you know uh going around now we're

1275
00:50:50,470 --> 00:50:47,920
getting

1276
00:50:52,470 --> 00:50:50,480
you know supposedly phase array radar is

1277
00:50:56,390 --> 00:50:52,480
coming where we'll be able to do

1278
00:50:59,510 --> 00:50:56,400
the entire atmosphere and one uh

1279
00:51:01,430 --> 00:50:59,520
in one shot you know and uh hopefully

1280
00:51:03,910 --> 00:51:01,440
that'll be soon so

1281
00:51:05,349 --> 00:51:03,920
uh our users don't have to wait a few

1282
00:51:09,270 --> 00:51:05,359
minutes to see

1283
00:51:13,109 --> 00:51:09,280
the most updated radar uh yeah you know

1284
00:51:15,430 --> 00:51:13,119
now what was the aftermath like for you

1285
00:51:16,309 --> 00:51:15,440
like to say like immediately after and

1286
00:51:19,750 --> 00:51:16,319
then

1287
00:51:23,030 --> 00:51:19,760
retired

1288
00:51:27,030 --> 00:51:23,040
uh i was i was scared

1289
00:51:28,790 --> 00:51:27,040
um i it didn't even occur to me that it

1290
00:51:31,349 --> 00:51:28,800
was on

1291
00:51:32,390 --> 00:51:31,359
that was being recorded i don't know why

1292
00:51:37,829 --> 00:51:32,400
i just

1293
00:51:40,470 --> 00:51:37,839
didn't didn't think about it and so um

1294
00:51:42,470 --> 00:51:40,480
evidently what happened was there were

1295
00:51:43,589 --> 00:51:42,480
some people that were on police banned

1296
00:51:46,870 --> 00:51:43,599
radios

1297
00:51:50,309 --> 00:51:46,880
they heard it and uh and so

1298
00:51:51,750 --> 00:51:50,319
they immediately went down to the 911

1299
00:51:53,829 --> 00:51:51,760
center and through the freedom of

1300
00:51:56,549 --> 00:51:53,839
information act they

1301
00:51:58,069 --> 00:51:56,559
they got a copy of the cassette with

1302
00:52:00,630 --> 00:51:58,079
some of the

1303
00:52:03,510 --> 00:52:00,640
many of the people that called in the uh

1304
00:52:07,430 --> 00:52:03,520
the ufo reports the citizens

1305
00:52:11,910 --> 00:52:07,440
and and then my entire phone call

1306
00:52:16,069 --> 00:52:11,920
was was was on that tape

1307
00:52:18,549 --> 00:52:16,079
and uh so um

1308
00:52:21,430 --> 00:52:18,559
you know sure i lost my cool a little

1309
00:52:25,109 --> 00:52:21,440
bit when i said oh my god what is this

1310
00:52:28,470 --> 00:52:25,119
but um you know

1311
00:52:29,190 --> 00:52:28,480
the police officer was was excited as

1312
00:52:31,990 --> 00:52:29,200
well

1313
00:52:32,630 --> 00:52:32,000
otherwise it would have been you know i

1314
00:52:36,470 --> 00:52:32,640
mean

1315
00:52:38,630 --> 00:52:36,480
you know i i i was i was less excited

1316
00:52:40,470 --> 00:52:38,640
about tornadoes than i was i mean i mean

1317
00:52:42,710 --> 00:52:40,480
you know of course i you know i'm more

1318
00:52:45,430 --> 00:52:42,720
focused on tornadoes than

1319
00:52:46,230 --> 00:52:45,440
than ufos or anything like that but i i

1320
00:52:49,190 --> 00:52:46,240
was

1321
00:52:50,309 --> 00:52:49,200
more creeped out about this and you know

1322
00:52:53,109 --> 00:52:50,319
and then when you get into

1323
00:52:53,829 --> 00:52:53,119
severe thunderstorm and tornado mode

1324
00:52:55,829 --> 00:52:53,839
you're

1325
00:52:58,230 --> 00:52:55,839
you've already practiced enough you know

1326
00:53:01,750 --> 00:52:58,240
what exactly what to do

1327
00:53:05,589 --> 00:53:01,760
uh but um

1328
00:53:08,790 --> 00:53:05,599
this was uh just a

1329
00:53:10,870 --> 00:53:08,800
you know just a

1330
00:53:12,390 --> 00:53:10,880
wrong place at the wrong time kind of

1331
00:53:14,630 --> 00:53:12,400
thing and

1332
00:53:15,910 --> 00:53:14,640
and it just so happened to happen to me

1333
00:53:19,030 --> 00:53:15,920
um

1334
00:53:22,549 --> 00:53:19,040
no but uh but yeah it it uh

1335
00:53:23,349 --> 00:53:22,559
i moved uh i was i was considered a

1336
00:53:25,990 --> 00:53:23,359
graduate

1337
00:53:26,829 --> 00:53:26,000
intern at that point uh i was supposed

1338
00:53:29,829 --> 00:53:26,839
to be a gs

1339
00:53:33,829 --> 00:53:29,839
579 and then out as a 12

1340
00:53:36,150 --> 00:53:33,839
11 12 to get a journeyman forecaster job

1341
00:53:38,470 --> 00:53:36,160
but uh we were undergoing uh

1342
00:53:40,069 --> 00:53:38,480
modernization restructuring so there was

1343
00:53:43,589 --> 00:53:40,079
a delay in that program

1344
00:53:46,950 --> 00:53:43,599
and so i was stuck there as well as

1345
00:53:49,270 --> 00:53:46,960
thousands of other meteorologists um

1346
00:53:50,549 --> 00:53:49,280
uh waiting for the modernization to

1347
00:53:53,109 --> 00:53:50,559
complete so we were all

1348
00:53:54,309 --> 00:53:53,119
kind of jammed waiting for us we were

1349
00:53:57,430 --> 00:53:54,319
considered

1350
00:53:59,990 --> 00:53:57,440
graduate interns waiting to get our

1351
00:54:02,470 --> 00:54:00,000
finalists or our next assignment which

1352
00:54:03,670 --> 00:54:02,480
would mean that we were forecasters at

1353
00:54:05,589 --> 00:54:03,680
that point

1354
00:54:07,109 --> 00:54:05,599
and they they actually did shut the

1355
00:54:10,470 --> 00:54:07,119
muskegon county

1356
00:54:12,069 --> 00:54:10,480
uh the missing radar skin radar and

1357
00:54:14,790 --> 00:54:12,079
muskegon national weather

1358
00:54:15,510 --> 00:54:14,800
office and grand rapids uh weather

1359
00:54:18,710 --> 00:54:15,520
office took

1360
00:54:20,829 --> 00:54:18,720
over our responsibilities um but they

1361
00:54:24,710 --> 00:54:20,839
went from 400 to about

1362
00:54:25,589 --> 00:54:24,720
150 offices uh in that in those early

1363
00:54:30,630 --> 00:54:25,599
90s

1364
00:54:34,230 --> 00:54:30,640
uh year uh decade and so uh but um

1365
00:54:38,069 --> 00:54:34,240
uh you know but uh i

1366
00:54:39,990 --> 00:54:38,079
at that point um yeah i was excited

1367
00:54:41,750 --> 00:54:40,000
about it i was nervous about it and i

1368
00:54:45,109 --> 00:54:41,760
just so happened to be

1369
00:54:48,069 --> 00:54:45,119
uh taking a trip the next week it was

1370
00:54:49,829 --> 00:54:48,079
march so it was cold and i was looking

1371
00:54:50,950 --> 00:54:49,839
forward to going back to florida to see

1372
00:54:54,230 --> 00:54:50,960
my mother and with

1373
00:54:56,549 --> 00:54:54,240
with my wife and uh um

1374
00:54:58,309 --> 00:54:56,559
and so you know it was a little ominous

1375
00:55:02,230 --> 00:54:58,319
when i left and i was gone for

1376
00:55:02,789 --> 00:55:02,240
a few weeks but um but everybody was

1377
00:55:04,870 --> 00:55:02,799
calling

1378
00:55:06,630 --> 00:55:04,880
asking you know what was going on but

1379
00:55:10,470 --> 00:55:06,640
when i would talk to

1380
00:55:12,150 --> 00:55:10,480
other people uh generally i would get

1381
00:55:12,950 --> 00:55:12,160
that look and i'm sure you know what

1382
00:55:16,710 --> 00:55:12,960
that look

1383
00:55:17,190 --> 00:55:16,720
is uh where and it was about 50 50

1384
00:55:20,549 --> 00:55:17,200
percent

1385
00:55:22,150 --> 00:55:20,559
i would say at that point 50 would look

1386
00:55:25,190 --> 00:55:22,160
at you like

1387
00:55:26,230 --> 00:55:25,200
you know you're nuts you know and uh the

1388
00:55:29,910 --> 00:55:26,240
other 50

1389
00:55:31,750 --> 00:55:29,920
were pretty well um interested

1390
00:55:33,190 --> 00:55:31,760
they were like oh tell me all about it

1391
00:55:35,670 --> 00:55:33,200
you know yeah

1392
00:55:37,270 --> 00:55:35,680
i feel i find that's true i hate to say

1393
00:55:38,950 --> 00:55:37,280
this but we ran out of time i can't

1394
00:55:41,270 --> 00:55:38,960
believe it once oh my gosh

1395
00:55:42,630 --> 00:55:41,280
and uh i remember mentioning too can you

1396
00:55:44,230 --> 00:55:42,640
want to be on for two hours i should

1397
00:55:46,630 --> 00:55:44,240
have had you on for two hours

1398
00:55:48,549 --> 00:55:46,640
but anyway you've been great uh i really

1399
00:55:49,430 --> 00:55:48,559
really enjoyed it a lot it's an amazing

1400
00:55:52,230 --> 00:55:49,440
story and

1401
00:55:52,789 --> 00:55:52,240
and um i i'm glad that you are talking

1402
00:55:54,390 --> 00:55:52,799
about it

1403
00:55:56,069 --> 00:55:54,400
and you feel more comfortable to talk

1404
00:55:58,549 --> 00:55:56,079
about it thank you so much

1405
00:55:59,670 --> 00:55:58,559
jack sure all right take care thank you

1406
00:56:02,950 --> 00:55:59,680
bye

1407
00:56:05,109 --> 00:56:02,960
all right so now i recorded a clip

1408
00:56:05,990 --> 00:56:05,119
with my friend dave marlar and i'm going

1409
00:56:07,910 --> 00:56:06,000
to play that

1410
00:56:10,150 --> 00:56:07,920
for the break so hang in there over at

1411
00:56:13,210 --> 00:56:10,160
kgr a radio we'll be right back right

1412
00:56:17,589 --> 00:56:14,789
[Music]

1413
00:56:18,470 --> 00:56:17,599
hey david uh thanks so much for joining

1414
00:56:21,030 --> 00:56:18,480
us for this little

1415
00:56:22,870 --> 00:56:21,040
break in the show that we have uh on a

1416
00:56:24,870 --> 00:56:22,880
weekly basis i appreciate it so

1417
00:56:26,950 --> 00:56:24,880
you have some guests there in your

1418
00:56:28,870 --> 00:56:26,960
little uh what do i want to call your

1419
00:56:30,069 --> 00:56:28,880
archives is that what you would call the

1420
00:56:32,390 --> 00:56:30,079
ufo archives

1421
00:56:34,470 --> 00:56:32,400
or archives i think really any of those

1422
00:56:35,750 --> 00:56:34,480
uh titles really fit the bill

1423
00:56:38,150 --> 00:56:35,760
i mean we're doing a lot of uh

1424
00:56:39,910 --> 00:56:38,160
historical research this weekend and uh

1425
00:56:41,430 --> 00:56:39,920
have some visiting researchers as you

1426
00:56:42,150 --> 00:56:41,440
mentioned and just real quick and kind

1427
00:56:45,349 --> 00:56:42,160
of show you

1428
00:56:45,910 --> 00:56:45,359
what they're doing here yeah so the flip

1429
00:56:49,670 --> 00:56:45,920
around

1430
00:56:52,710 --> 00:56:49,680
oh hey everyone and of course

1431
00:56:55,589 --> 00:56:52,720
there's charles lear that's our blog

1432
00:56:56,470 --> 00:56:55,599
the blogger for podcast ufo and audio

1433
00:56:58,870 --> 00:56:56,480
blogger

1434
00:56:59,670 --> 00:56:58,880
that you hear here each week here on

1435
00:57:03,589 --> 00:56:59,680
youtube

1436
00:57:06,870 --> 00:57:03,599
and we have barry barry i'm sorry

1437
00:57:08,150 --> 00:57:06,880
barry ross from colorado welcome welcome

1438
00:57:09,589 --> 00:57:08,160
to the show have you ever heard of our

1439
00:57:10,630 --> 00:57:09,599
show before you could say no if you

1440
00:57:13,990 --> 00:57:10,640
haven't

1441
00:57:15,750 --> 00:57:14,000
i have no i've heard of your show before

1442
00:57:17,990 --> 00:57:15,760
that's good that was that was a true

1443
00:57:20,630 --> 00:57:18,000
test right there

1444
00:57:22,230 --> 00:57:20,640
so let's take uh uh let's take a walk

1445
00:57:23,270 --> 00:57:22,240
around look at those beautiful wait a

1446
00:57:24,230 --> 00:57:23,280
minute i want to go back to the

1447
00:57:25,430 --> 00:57:24,240
bookcases just

1448
00:57:27,430 --> 00:57:25,440
because i know there's are lawyer

1449
00:57:30,309 --> 00:57:27,440
bookcases the stacked ones yes

1450
00:57:30,710 --> 00:57:30,319
did those come out of uh out of one

1451
00:57:32,630 --> 00:57:30,720
place

1452
00:57:34,710 --> 00:57:32,640
they must have i've had to acquire those

1453
00:57:36,230 --> 00:57:34,720
over a period of years as i continue to

1454
00:57:38,069 --> 00:57:36,240
grow the library and then of course we

1455
00:57:40,230 --> 00:57:38,079
got the very end there we have

1456
00:57:42,069 --> 00:57:40,240
floor-to-ceiling bookcases yeah those

1457
00:57:43,510 --> 00:57:42,079
come from the stacks you can take the

1458
00:57:46,150 --> 00:57:43,520
stacks down or

1459
00:57:47,750 --> 00:57:46,160
build them up yeah absolutely and over

1460
00:57:49,430 --> 00:57:47,760
here though real quick we have the

1461
00:57:51,990 --> 00:57:49,440
studio area where i do my

1462
00:57:53,910 --> 00:57:52,000
podcasts with various shows but also

1463
00:57:55,589 --> 00:57:53,920
we're doing digitization work and you

1464
00:57:57,510 --> 00:57:55,599
can see the reel to reel there

1465
00:57:59,589 --> 00:57:57,520
uh working on the historic nightcap

1466
00:58:01,270 --> 00:57:59,599
audio recordings and that's a

1467
00:58:03,510 --> 00:58:01,280
one i'm getting ready to do a uh

1468
00:58:05,990 --> 00:58:03,520
interview with the 1966 eyewitness

1469
00:58:07,190 --> 00:58:06,000
so lots of lots of digitization work

1470
00:58:09,270 --> 00:58:07,200
we're going to have another one where

1471
00:58:12,630 --> 00:58:09,280
we'll have two workstations set up

1472
00:58:14,710 --> 00:58:12,640
to digitize video as well as audio

1473
00:58:16,069 --> 00:58:14,720
and then over here we have project blue

1474
00:58:17,270 --> 00:58:16,079
book memorabilia

1475
00:58:18,549 --> 00:58:17,280
i don't think i have time to get into

1476
00:58:19,510 --> 00:58:18,559
all that but you can kind of see some of

1477
00:58:21,510 --> 00:58:19,520
the original

1478
00:58:23,270 --> 00:58:21,520
materials from project blue book that

1479
00:58:24,309 --> 00:58:23,280
i've gathered over the years in addition

1480
00:58:27,670 --> 00:58:24,319
i might add

1481
00:58:30,069 --> 00:58:27,680
to the files of dr j allen hynek

1482
00:58:31,750 --> 00:58:30,079
but we also have original front page

1483
00:58:32,549 --> 00:58:31,760
historic newspapers that's from

1484
00:58:34,829 --> 00:58:32,559
farmington

1485
00:58:36,069 --> 00:58:34,839
you can see many of the others

1486
00:58:39,750 --> 00:58:36,079
photographs

1487
00:58:41,349 --> 00:58:39,760
and publications just walking dial here

1488
00:58:42,789 --> 00:58:41,359
and then as we work our way this

1489
00:58:44,549 --> 00:58:42,799
direction you know we have more

1490
00:58:45,910 --> 00:58:44,559
bookcases we like to call this side the

1491
00:58:48,549 --> 00:58:45,920
library room

1492
00:58:49,829 --> 00:58:48,559
for obvious reasons and then as we work

1493
00:58:52,950 --> 00:58:49,839
our way over this direction

1494
00:58:54,390 --> 00:58:52,960
this is what we call the files and here

1495
00:58:57,109 --> 00:58:54,400
we have microfilm

1496
00:58:59,109 --> 00:58:57,119
the x files the oh this this is the real

1497
00:59:01,430 --> 00:58:59,119
x files martin yeah okay

1498
00:59:02,789 --> 00:59:01,440
this is fact not fiction and here you

1499
00:59:04,230 --> 00:59:02,799
can see charles he's actually going

1500
00:59:06,549 --> 00:59:04,240
through some material right now

1501
00:59:08,470 --> 00:59:06,559
actual project blue book project blue

1502
00:59:10,309 --> 00:59:08,480
book photographs right there from

1503
00:59:11,910 --> 00:59:10,319
business blue book materials from

1504
00:59:14,549 --> 00:59:11,920
lieutenant carmen murano

1505
00:59:15,910 --> 00:59:14,559
and so he's going through that and then

1506
00:59:19,030 --> 00:59:15,920
over here

1507
00:59:22,069 --> 00:59:19,040
we have some of the historic nightcap

1508
00:59:22,549 --> 00:59:22,079
kufos case files and so you can see we

1509
00:59:25,430 --> 00:59:22,559
have

1510
00:59:26,870 --> 00:59:25,440
quite a few file cabinets down this

1511
00:59:30,630 --> 00:59:26,880
entire stretch

1512
00:59:32,150 --> 00:59:30,640
even getting around charles there and

1513
00:59:33,750 --> 00:59:32,160
lots of historical material that i've

1514
00:59:36,390 --> 00:59:33,760
been able to gather over the years

1515
00:59:37,430 --> 00:59:36,400
and these drawers are filled with tons

1516
00:59:40,069 --> 00:59:37,440
of material

1517
00:59:41,990 --> 00:59:40,079
and as i mentioned earlier including

1518
00:59:45,990 --> 00:59:42,000
microfilm

1519
00:59:47,829 --> 00:59:46,000
each comprising hundreds of pages of

1520
00:59:48,870 --> 00:59:47,839
government documents as well as news

1521
00:59:52,069 --> 00:59:48,880
clippings

1522
00:59:54,230 --> 00:59:52,079
on the subject matter wow

1523
00:59:55,109 --> 00:59:54,240
this is fascinating we're out of time

1524
00:59:57,430 --> 00:59:55,119
though david

1525
00:59:59,190 --> 00:59:57,440
but hey thanks so much for showing us

1526
01:00:02,309 --> 00:59:59,200
the birds eye or drones

1527
01:00:13,990 --> 01:00:02,319
drones eye view here happy to

1528
01:00:17,349 --> 01:00:14,000
thank you martin all right take care

1529
01:00:19,589 --> 01:00:17,359
in three two one go

1530
01:00:20,870 --> 01:00:19,599
all right welcome back everyone uh this

1531
01:00:24,230 --> 01:00:20,880
is martin willis

1532
01:00:25,750 --> 01:00:24,240
and my guest now is ian rogers up in

1533
01:00:26,309 --> 01:00:25,760
canada we're gonna be talking about a

1534
01:00:30,630 --> 01:00:26,319
really

1535
01:00:33,349 --> 01:00:30,640
uh very uh well as i said before

1536
01:00:35,670 --> 01:00:33,359
spoiler alert it's a hoax but it's a

1537
01:00:38,309 --> 01:00:35,680
it's an amazing uh situation

1538
01:00:39,190 --> 01:00:38,319
and it caused a big stir in its day and

1539
01:00:41,750 --> 01:00:39,200
welcome to the show

1540
01:00:42,390 --> 01:00:41,760
ian hi martin thanks for having me on

1541
01:00:46,309 --> 01:00:42,400
thanks for

1542
01:00:47,910 --> 01:00:46,319
being on and i watched the uh ufo town

1543
01:00:50,230 --> 01:00:47,920
because i was lucky enough to get the

1544
01:00:51,829 --> 01:00:50,240
screener and i didn't realize that

1545
01:00:53,990 --> 01:00:51,839
in the states you can't actually watch

1546
01:00:54,870 --> 01:00:54,000
that yet but you may be able to at some

1547
01:00:56,549 --> 01:00:54,880
point right

1548
01:00:58,150 --> 01:00:56,559
yeah they're uh it was made it was

1549
01:00:59,829 --> 01:00:58,160
produced for uh cbc

1550
01:01:01,510 --> 01:00:59,839
canadian television but they're in the

1551
01:01:03,270 --> 01:01:01,520
process of uh selling this other

1552
01:01:05,750 --> 01:01:03,280
territories right now including

1553
01:01:07,270 --> 01:01:05,760
the united states so hopefully uh you'll

1554
01:01:09,829 --> 01:01:07,280
be able to see it very soon

1555
01:01:10,630 --> 01:01:09,839
yeah yeah but um i i was able to watch

1556
01:01:13,990 --> 01:01:10,640
it now

1557
01:01:16,710 --> 01:01:14,000
i i guess the takeaway from that is uh

1558
01:01:17,349 --> 01:01:16,720
there's still a lot going on around and

1559
01:01:19,670 --> 01:01:17,359
there was

1560
01:01:21,109 --> 01:01:19,680
in the beginning right yeah it's uh it's

1561
01:01:22,870 --> 01:01:21,119
a very interesting case

1562
01:01:25,030 --> 01:01:22,880
i mean i think i mean obviously that's

1563
01:01:26,870 --> 01:01:25,040
why the the people that made ufo town

1564
01:01:29,990 --> 01:01:26,880
decide to do a documentary about it

1565
01:01:31,349 --> 01:01:30,000
um on the surface you've got this the

1566
01:01:33,670 --> 01:01:31,359
guardian case itself which has been

1567
01:01:37,030 --> 01:01:33,680
featured on unsolved mysteries etc

1568
01:01:38,549 --> 01:01:37,040
but it's based on an existing series of

1569
01:01:39,430 --> 01:01:38,559
ufo sightings in that area in the west

1570
01:01:42,069 --> 01:01:39,440
carlton area

1571
01:01:43,349 --> 01:01:42,079
um from the late 1980s to the early

1572
01:01:45,510 --> 01:01:43,359
1990s

1573
01:01:48,390 --> 01:01:45,520
sorry about my cat that's all right

1574
01:01:52,069 --> 01:01:49,829
yeah so it's a it was a whole bunch of

1575
01:01:53,589 --> 01:01:52,079
sightings what was what sort of um

1576
01:01:55,829 --> 01:01:53,599
gave a lot of credibility to the

1577
01:01:58,549 --> 01:01:55,839
guardian case initially was

1578
01:01:59,190 --> 01:01:58,559
before um the figure who called himself

1579
01:02:01,430 --> 01:01:59,200
guardian was

1580
01:02:02,390 --> 01:02:01,440
sending out material uh there was

1581
01:02:04,630 --> 01:02:02,400
already reports

1582
01:02:06,630 --> 01:02:04,640
in the local newspapers of ufo sightings

1583
01:02:09,270 --> 01:02:06,640
independent of guardian um

1584
01:02:10,870 --> 01:02:09,280
even reports of uh strange beans being

1585
01:02:13,910 --> 01:02:10,880
seen in people's backyards

1586
01:02:14,390 --> 01:02:13,920
so there there was a a precedent for it

1587
01:02:15,750 --> 01:02:14,400
before

1588
01:02:17,990 --> 01:02:15,760
guardian even started sending out

1589
01:02:19,670 --> 01:02:18,000
material

1590
01:02:21,510 --> 01:02:19,680
oh how about that you know i'm looking

1591
01:02:24,230 --> 01:02:21,520
in your background at your

1592
01:02:24,710 --> 01:02:24,240
books oh my god how many books do you

1593
01:02:26,950 --> 01:02:24,720
have

1594
01:02:28,789 --> 01:02:26,960
and i'm i'm in the process of moving and

1595
01:02:30,870 --> 01:02:28,799
i can't stand moving

1596
01:02:32,069 --> 01:02:30,880
um there's easily a couple thousand you

1597
01:02:34,470 --> 01:02:32,079
can there's also more

1598
01:02:35,589 --> 01:02:34,480
over there and so i'm a writer so i mean

1599
01:02:38,789 --> 01:02:35,599
uh

1600
01:02:40,950 --> 01:02:38,799
i call it

1601
01:02:41,910 --> 01:02:40,960
my fallout shelter down here because uh

1602
01:02:45,430 --> 01:02:41,920
i could survive

1603
01:02:47,750 --> 01:02:45,440
you know clear past you know minuscule

1604
01:02:48,470 --> 01:02:47,760
of course but uh yeah that's lots to

1605
01:02:51,109 --> 01:02:48,480
read

1606
01:02:52,230 --> 01:02:51,119
yeah yeah how about that um so let's

1607
01:02:54,230 --> 01:02:52,240
talk about the

1608
01:02:55,910 --> 01:02:54,240
i don't know do you do you call it the

1609
01:02:59,670 --> 01:02:55,920
uh i saw it called the

1610
01:03:01,190 --> 01:02:59,680
uh carp uh aunt uh ontario uh

1611
01:03:03,910 --> 01:03:01,200
case or something like that also the

1612
01:03:05,589 --> 01:03:03,920
guardian the guardian vhs what is the

1613
01:03:06,870 --> 01:03:05,599
proper name for that

1614
01:03:08,789 --> 01:03:06,880
um you know what i've just heard it

1615
01:03:11,029 --> 01:03:08,799
referred to as the carp case or the carp

1616
01:03:12,630 --> 01:03:11,039
guardian case i mean

1617
01:03:13,990 --> 01:03:12,640
once you say carp and guardian people

1618
01:03:16,549 --> 01:03:14,000
usually know what you're talking about

1619
01:03:19,430 --> 01:03:16,559
it's a pretty infamous case because uh

1620
01:03:20,470 --> 01:03:19,440
it um i mean even beyond ufology it was

1621
01:03:22,710 --> 01:03:20,480
featured on the

1622
01:03:24,470 --> 01:03:22,720
unsolved mysteries program back in the

1623
01:03:26,230 --> 01:03:24,480
early 90s which was obviously a very

1624
01:03:27,750 --> 01:03:26,240
very popular tv show i it's

1625
01:03:30,309 --> 01:03:27,760
one of my favorites i think it still

1626
01:03:32,309 --> 01:03:30,319
holds up all the older two

1627
01:03:33,589 --> 01:03:32,319
are available on youtube right now and

1628
01:03:35,270 --> 01:03:33,599
my wife and i have actually been going

1629
01:03:36,549 --> 01:03:35,280
back and re-watching them i'm having a

1630
01:03:38,309 --> 01:03:36,559
lot of uh

1631
01:03:39,750 --> 01:03:38,319
nostalgic feelings when my sister and i

1632
01:03:41,510 --> 01:03:39,760
used to watch them and how creeped out

1633
01:03:42,789 --> 01:03:41,520
we used to be by the uh even just the

1634
01:03:45,190 --> 01:03:42,799
theme music

1635
01:03:47,270 --> 01:03:45,200
and um as kids not even really being

1636
01:03:49,029 --> 01:03:47,280
aware of the presence of robert stack

1637
01:03:51,029 --> 01:03:49,039
dressed up in his sort of uh

1638
01:03:52,470 --> 01:03:51,039
elliot ness untouchables outfit i didn't

1639
01:03:53,910 --> 01:03:52,480
tell you i was really aware that he was

1640
01:03:54,950 --> 01:03:53,920
sort of vamping on that at the time but

1641
01:03:57,190 --> 01:03:54,960
of course now

1642
01:03:59,349 --> 01:03:57,200
um older um i've got a like a new

1643
01:04:01,510 --> 01:03:59,359
appreciation for it and uh

1644
01:04:04,309 --> 01:04:01,520
um guardian obviously stuck out to me

1645
01:04:06,150 --> 01:04:04,319
because i was always interested in ufos

1646
01:04:08,069 --> 01:04:06,160
but the the cases in canada there

1647
01:04:10,470 --> 01:04:08,079
weren't a lot of really notable ones so

1648
01:04:12,789 --> 01:04:10,480
guardian really struck a tone with me

1649
01:04:14,470 --> 01:04:12,799
because it was a case that was

1650
01:04:16,150 --> 01:04:14,480
not just taking place a couple of hours

1651
01:04:16,870 --> 01:04:16,160
from where i live but it was so unusual

1652
01:04:19,349 --> 01:04:16,880
i mean uh

1653
01:04:21,910 --> 01:04:19,359
this is let's figure sending out video

1654
01:04:23,910 --> 01:04:21,920
tapes of alleged ufo landings

1655
01:04:26,630 --> 01:04:23,920
yeah this i'm gonna i'm gonna put this

1656
01:04:28,150 --> 01:04:26,640
up on the screen for those of you on

1657
01:04:29,750 --> 01:04:28,160
twitch facebook and youtube you can

1658
01:04:31,349 --> 01:04:29,760
watch it and uh

1659
01:04:33,510 --> 01:04:31,359
anyway here it is it goes right here but

1660
01:04:34,470 --> 01:04:33,520
we can talk about so a lot of people may

1661
01:04:35,910 --> 01:04:34,480
not

1662
01:04:38,150 --> 01:04:35,920
know exactly what we're talking about

1663
01:04:40,630 --> 01:04:38,160
but when they see this video they'll say

1664
01:04:42,309 --> 01:04:40,640
oh yeah oh yeah great because when i

1665
01:04:44,950 --> 01:04:42,319
first started looking into this

1666
01:04:46,870 --> 01:04:44,960
you know topic in general i was

1667
01:04:50,470 --> 01:04:46,880
mesmerized by this one

1668
01:04:52,390 --> 01:04:50,480
and and ends up being nothing exciting

1669
01:04:54,390 --> 01:04:52,400
yeah but it's a spooky tape i mean like

1670
01:04:55,910 --> 01:04:54,400
i said the the context of watching this

1671
01:04:56,630 --> 01:04:55,920
unsolved mysteries and you're thinking

1672
01:04:58,630 --> 01:04:56,640
that this

1673
01:04:59,990 --> 01:04:58,640
this unknown figure recorded this in

1674
01:05:02,789 --> 01:05:00,000
someone's farm

1675
01:05:04,150 --> 01:05:02,799
farmer's field um and then was sending

1676
01:05:06,470 --> 01:05:04,160
them out sort of anonymously

1677
01:05:08,390 --> 01:05:06,480
it's it's it's it's kind of a spooky

1678
01:05:10,549 --> 01:05:08,400
spooky uh circumstance

1679
01:05:12,630 --> 01:05:10,559
and uh i've said this to death but i

1680
01:05:13,190 --> 01:05:12,640
mean it really is the whole case is like

1681
01:05:14,549 --> 01:05:13,200
a movie

1682
01:05:17,109 --> 01:05:14,559
you know you've got this mysterious

1683
01:05:20,470 --> 01:05:17,119
figure like whether or not he's a

1684
01:05:21,589 --> 01:05:20,480
a total nut job or a government insider

1685
01:05:22,630 --> 01:05:21,599
you don't really know

1686
01:05:24,630 --> 01:05:22,640
right i mean you don't know anything

1687
01:05:26,390 --> 01:05:24,640
about him except his his uh

1688
01:05:27,750 --> 01:05:26,400
his sort of non-deployment guardian and

1689
01:05:30,150 --> 01:05:27,760
he put his thumbprint

1690
01:05:32,390 --> 01:05:30,160
on on his videotapes and he would send

1691
01:05:35,430 --> 01:05:32,400
these out with a bunch of material uh

1692
01:05:37,190 --> 01:05:35,440
thumbprint really government documents

1693
01:05:38,470 --> 01:05:37,200
and photographs and stuff and they

1694
01:05:40,069 --> 01:05:38,480
weren't great that was the reason why

1695
01:05:41,990 --> 01:05:40,079
ufo investigators even

1696
01:05:43,750 --> 01:05:42,000
even before the unsolved mysteries

1697
01:05:45,510 --> 01:05:43,760
coverage didn't really take guardian

1698
01:05:48,150 --> 01:05:45,520
very seriously the

1699
01:05:49,270 --> 01:05:48,160
even as far as forgeries go the the

1700
01:05:51,029 --> 01:05:49,280
so-called

1701
01:05:52,549 --> 01:05:51,039
department of national defense documents

1702
01:05:54,230 --> 01:05:52,559
that he included with the videotape were

1703
01:05:55,430 --> 01:05:54,240
really poor quality it was more like

1704
01:05:58,390 --> 01:05:55,440
what

1705
01:05:59,910 --> 01:05:58,400
documents looked like from like an

1706
01:06:01,589 --> 01:05:59,920
episode of the x-files you know they

1707
01:06:03,910 --> 01:06:01,599
just

1708
01:06:05,750 --> 01:06:03,920
a lot of effort on there there were

1709
01:06:07,029 --> 01:06:05,760
spelling mistakes in them countries that

1710
01:06:09,270 --> 01:06:07,039
are mentioned and the documents are

1711
01:06:11,910 --> 01:06:09,280
spelled wrong so

1712
01:06:13,190 --> 01:06:11,920
it's uh so again it's just it's it's

1713
01:06:15,270 --> 01:06:13,200
hard to believe that

1714
01:06:16,470 --> 01:06:15,280
that people actually believed it and

1715
01:06:18,309 --> 01:06:16,480
then people some people still believe it

1716
01:06:19,270 --> 01:06:18,319
to this day you know but as i always say

1717
01:06:20,870 --> 01:06:19,280
there's people that still think the

1718
01:06:22,870 --> 01:06:20,880
blair witch project is a real

1719
01:06:24,390 --> 01:06:22,880
movie about three kids who got lost in

1720
01:06:27,029 --> 01:06:24,400
the woods you know so

1721
01:06:28,870 --> 01:06:27,039
people um it's a compelling story and

1722
01:06:31,990 --> 01:06:28,880
anytime you've got a mystery

1723
01:06:33,349 --> 01:06:32,000
um with with a supposed answer you're

1724
01:06:36,470 --> 01:06:33,359
always going to have a segment of the

1725
01:06:37,750 --> 01:06:36,480
public who thinks um

1726
01:06:38,710 --> 01:06:37,760
well that's deceptive you know like

1727
01:06:40,230 --> 01:06:38,720
that's actually not the truth that's

1728
01:06:40,870 --> 01:06:40,240
what they want us to believe right so

1729
01:06:42,069 --> 01:06:40,880
you sort of

1730
01:06:43,750 --> 01:06:42,079
you go down that rabbit hole of

1731
01:06:44,710 --> 01:06:43,760
conspiracies where even when you get

1732
01:06:47,750 --> 01:06:44,720
answers

1733
01:06:49,589 --> 01:06:47,760
you know it's the

1734
01:06:50,549 --> 01:06:49,599
it's like the uh this government report

1735
01:06:52,230 --> 01:06:50,559
i think it's the navy report that's

1736
01:06:53,829 --> 01:06:52,240
supposed to be coming out next month

1737
01:06:54,710 --> 01:06:53,839
that everyone's all really excited about

1738
01:06:56,470 --> 01:06:54,720
i think it's going to be this big

1739
01:06:58,549 --> 01:06:56,480
disclosure but

1740
01:07:00,069 --> 01:06:58,559
i'm not really i'm interested to see it

1741
01:07:01,589 --> 01:07:00,079
but i'm not really holding out

1742
01:07:03,109 --> 01:07:01,599
much hope about what it's going to be

1743
01:07:05,109 --> 01:07:03,119
because this has sort of been the carrot

1744
01:07:07,670 --> 01:07:05,119
that they've been dangling in front of

1745
01:07:09,109 --> 01:07:07,680
ufo investigators and people you know

1746
01:07:11,750 --> 01:07:09,119
ufo believers and

1747
01:07:12,710 --> 01:07:11,760
everyone for for years you know like it

1748
01:07:14,230 --> 01:07:12,720
goes all the way back to

1749
01:07:16,470 --> 01:07:14,240
close encounters of the third kind when

1750
01:07:18,470 --> 01:07:16,480
people felt that this was

1751
01:07:20,309 --> 01:07:18,480
you know the government's way by way of

1752
01:07:21,750 --> 01:07:20,319
hollywood to indoctrinate the public and

1753
01:07:23,510 --> 01:07:21,760
prepare them for the

1754
01:07:25,190 --> 01:07:23,520
the big news that aliens are real and

1755
01:07:26,630 --> 01:07:25,200
they're here they've they've said this

1756
01:07:28,230 --> 01:07:26,640
over the years that oh the big

1757
01:07:30,549 --> 01:07:28,240
disclosure's coming it's coming any day

1758
01:07:31,750 --> 01:07:30,559
now so yeah like again i'm curious to

1759
01:07:33,430 --> 01:07:31,760
see what happens next month with the

1760
01:07:35,190 --> 01:07:33,440
support but i'm not really

1761
01:07:37,190 --> 01:07:35,200
holding out much hope that it's going to

1762
01:07:38,309 --> 01:07:37,200
be yup aliens are real they've been

1763
01:07:40,390 --> 01:07:38,319
visiting for a while

1764
01:07:41,990 --> 01:07:40,400
yeah i don't think so either and it may

1765
01:07:43,430 --> 01:07:42,000
not we may it may be delayed

1766
01:07:45,510 --> 01:07:43,440
anyway i mean a lot of people are

1767
01:07:48,549 --> 01:07:45,520
thinking that um they mean

1768
01:07:52,150 --> 01:07:48,559
may need more time yeah but but still no

1769
01:07:54,069 --> 01:07:52,160
no i get that so um can you like for the

1770
01:07:56,390 --> 01:07:54,079
person that's never heard about this

1771
01:07:57,589 --> 01:07:56,400
kind of explain from the beginning did

1772
01:07:59,589 --> 01:07:57,599
someone receive this

1773
01:08:00,630 --> 01:07:59,599
tape in the mail or something like that

1774
01:08:01,589 --> 01:08:00,640
was yeah

1775
01:08:03,670 --> 01:08:01,599
i'll try and break it down for you

1776
01:08:05,029 --> 01:08:03,680
pretty quick it's um what basically what

1777
01:08:07,589 --> 01:08:05,039
happened was in um

1778
01:08:08,390 --> 01:08:07,599
1989 this figure named guardians started

1779
01:08:11,670 --> 01:08:08,400
sending out

1780
01:08:12,870 --> 01:08:11,680
um kind of like a uh a report i guess

1781
01:08:14,150 --> 01:08:12,880
you would say it was a two-page report

1782
01:08:17,269 --> 01:08:14,160
that was talking about a

1783
01:08:19,669 --> 01:08:17,279
ufo retrieval in the west carlton area

1784
01:08:24,309 --> 01:08:19,679
of ontario which is um near ottawa

1785
01:08:27,430 --> 01:08:24,319
just about 30 minutes west of ottawa so

1786
01:08:29,990 --> 01:08:27,440
um accompanying this report was a

1787
01:08:31,510 --> 01:08:30,000
photocopy of a image that's supposed to

1788
01:08:32,950 --> 01:08:31,520
be an alien i guess like sort of like a

1789
01:08:34,630 --> 01:08:32,960
gray style alien

1790
01:08:36,149 --> 01:08:34,640
um except it's almost like from like a

1791
01:08:37,590 --> 01:08:36,159
side view where you can almost see what

1792
01:08:39,269 --> 01:08:37,600
very clearly it looks like the strap of

1793
01:08:40,709 --> 01:08:39,279
a mask but you almost wonder why he

1794
01:08:42,390 --> 01:08:40,719
would send that picture and not like a

1795
01:08:44,070 --> 01:08:42,400
front on shot because

1796
01:08:45,829 --> 01:08:44,080
this wasn't very convincing as far as

1797
01:08:49,110 --> 01:08:45,839
evidence goes

1798
01:08:51,349 --> 01:08:49,120
and even the the report there was no way

1799
01:08:53,510 --> 01:08:51,359
to really corroborate it

1800
01:08:55,349 --> 01:08:53,520
they did send up uh it was either mufon

1801
01:08:57,030 --> 01:08:55,359
ontario or q4 and i can't remember sent

1802
01:08:58,070 --> 01:08:57,040
up an investigator just sort of to

1803
01:08:59,510 --> 01:08:58,080
to check it out and see if there was

1804
01:09:00,950 --> 01:08:59,520
anything to it because it was talking

1805
01:09:02,470 --> 01:09:00,960
about a large military presence to

1806
01:09:05,030 --> 01:09:02,480
retrieve this craft from

1807
01:09:06,149 --> 01:09:05,040
from the swamps of this rural area um

1808
01:09:07,110 --> 01:09:06,159
but there would have been evidence of

1809
01:09:08,709 --> 01:09:07,120
that activity

1810
01:09:10,630 --> 01:09:08,719
it's not a highly populated area but

1811
01:09:12,070 --> 01:09:10,640
there are people that live up there so

1812
01:09:14,070 --> 01:09:12,080
um the investigators spoke to a few

1813
01:09:14,870 --> 01:09:14,080
people and no one except for i think one

1814
01:09:16,070 --> 01:09:14,880
or two people

1815
01:09:17,910 --> 01:09:16,080
claimed that they saw anything except

1816
01:09:19,749 --> 01:09:17,920
for like a bright light but certainly no

1817
01:09:21,669 --> 01:09:19,759
military presence much less the kind of

1818
01:09:25,110 --> 01:09:21,679
presence that would be required to

1819
01:09:27,430 --> 01:09:25,120
extricate extricated craft from from

1820
01:09:29,110 --> 01:09:27,440
from the swamp so people the government

1821
01:09:30,550 --> 01:09:29,120
or the uh the ufo investigators at the

1822
01:09:31,110 --> 01:09:30,560
time sort of just dismissed it and moved

1823
01:09:34,789 --> 01:09:31,120
on

1824
01:09:37,590 --> 01:09:34,799
um then in 1991

1825
01:09:38,470 --> 01:09:37,600
early 1992 guardian came back with more

1826
01:09:40,070 --> 01:09:38,480
material

1827
01:09:41,829 --> 01:09:40,080
and this time there was a videotape and

1828
01:09:42,950 --> 01:09:41,839
this the tape that you that you just

1829
01:09:44,390 --> 01:09:42,960
showed there so

1830
01:09:46,390 --> 01:09:44,400
again there wasn't really a lot of

1831
01:09:47,349 --> 01:09:46,400
precedence to sort of take guardians

1832
01:09:49,030 --> 01:09:47,359
seriously

1833
01:09:51,030 --> 01:09:49,040
but because there was more material and

1834
01:09:52,070 --> 01:09:51,040
now there was like a map of the area

1835
01:09:53,749 --> 01:09:52,080
that he included

1836
01:09:55,910 --> 01:09:53,759
and this videotape and because he had

1837
01:09:58,550 --> 01:09:55,920
sent it a lot more broadly

1838
01:10:01,189 --> 01:09:58,560
investigators i wouldn't even say they

1839
01:10:03,750 --> 01:10:01,199
took it seriously but they decided to

1840
01:10:05,750 --> 01:10:03,760
send a larger team of people up there

1841
01:10:08,149 --> 01:10:05,760
from euphone ontario people like

1842
01:10:10,229 --> 01:10:08,159
drew williamson and tom theophinus errol

1843
01:10:11,910 --> 01:10:10,239
bruce knapp

1844
01:10:14,149 --> 01:10:11,920
they all went up there with an american

1845
01:10:15,669 --> 01:10:14,159
investigator named bob exler who also

1846
01:10:17,510 --> 01:10:15,679
had received um

1847
01:10:18,709 --> 01:10:17,520
a copy of the tape in his home in uh

1848
01:10:20,870 --> 01:10:18,719
maryland

1849
01:10:23,350 --> 01:10:20,880
so this was like a joint u.s american

1850
01:10:26,630 --> 01:10:23,360
team that went up to this area

1851
01:10:28,070 --> 01:10:26,640
um and uh

1852
01:10:29,430 --> 01:10:28,080
part of the case was obviously trying to

1853
01:10:31,030 --> 01:10:29,440
figure out who guardian was you know

1854
01:10:32,870 --> 01:10:31,040
there was there was no indication that

1855
01:10:35,270 --> 01:10:32,880
he wanted to have any contact obviously

1856
01:10:36,470 --> 01:10:35,280
he's using a he's using a fake name

1857
01:10:38,310 --> 01:10:36,480
there's no return address on the

1858
01:10:42,070 --> 01:10:38,320
packages so

1859
01:10:44,709 --> 01:10:42,080
um it was um bob exler's idea to

1860
01:10:46,470 --> 01:10:44,719
use his media contacts to do a segment

1861
01:10:49,910 --> 01:10:46,480
on unsold mysteries to try to get

1862
01:10:51,510 --> 01:10:49,920
guardian um exposed more or less because

1863
01:10:52,229 --> 01:10:51,520
once all mysteries has got like a tip

1864
01:10:53,910 --> 01:10:52,239
line

1865
01:10:55,189 --> 01:10:53,920
um it was kind of the precursor to

1866
01:10:56,149 --> 01:10:55,199
america's most wanted right there was

1867
01:10:58,950 --> 01:10:56,159
there was

1868
01:11:00,390 --> 01:10:58,960
to unsolved mysteries it wasn't just

1869
01:11:03,110 --> 01:11:00,400
ghosts and monsters

1870
01:11:04,709 --> 01:11:03,120
um there there was this hotline and uh

1871
01:11:06,709 --> 01:11:04,719
someone did call in claiming that they

1872
01:11:07,350 --> 01:11:06,719
knew who guardian was that there was a a

1873
01:11:10,070 --> 01:11:07,360
local

1874
01:11:11,590 --> 01:11:10,080
um who was big into ufos and he'd

1875
01:11:12,550 --> 01:11:11,600
actually used the name guardian in the

1876
01:11:15,030 --> 01:11:12,560
past

1877
01:11:16,229 --> 01:11:15,040
um the investigators at the time tried

1878
01:11:17,750 --> 01:11:16,239
to uh

1879
01:11:18,950 --> 01:11:17,760
um get this person to speak to them and

1880
01:11:20,470 --> 01:11:18,960
he just didn't want to have anything to

1881
01:11:21,669 --> 01:11:20,480
do with them like he wouldn't even deny

1882
01:11:23,189 --> 01:11:21,679
that he was guardian he just wouldn't

1883
01:11:24,790 --> 01:11:23,199
speak to them

1884
01:11:29,189 --> 01:11:24,800
at all which of course only makes him

1885
01:11:31,910 --> 01:11:30,630
it was just such an unusual case i mean

1886
01:11:32,470 --> 01:11:31,920
you've got this cast of characters

1887
01:11:35,750 --> 01:11:32,480
you've got

1888
01:11:38,229 --> 01:11:35,760
major major television coverage

1889
01:11:39,270 --> 01:11:38,239
other tv shows covered it as well like

1890
01:11:41,270 --> 01:11:39,280
sightings and

1891
01:11:42,709 --> 01:11:41,280
encounters if you remember those tv

1892
01:11:45,110 --> 01:11:42,719
shows on fox back in the

1893
01:11:46,229 --> 01:11:45,120
in the 90s it was a big time for ufos

1894
01:11:47,669 --> 01:11:46,239
right i mean it was

1895
01:11:49,270 --> 01:11:47,679
i would even say the 90s was kind of

1896
01:11:51,430 --> 01:11:49,280
like the second renaissance of ufos

1897
01:11:54,390 --> 01:11:51,440
between x-files and independence day

1898
01:11:55,990 --> 01:11:54,400
and the alien autopsy tape and the 50th

1899
01:11:56,950 --> 01:11:56,000
anniversary of the roswell incident i

1900
01:11:59,990 --> 01:11:56,960
mean ufos are

1901
01:12:03,350 --> 01:12:00,000
really prominent in the pop culture um

1902
01:12:04,870 --> 01:12:03,360
but after uh this i guess you call him

1903
01:12:06,470 --> 01:12:04,880
the guardian suspect refugees

1904
01:12:08,310 --> 01:12:06,480
really have anything to do with the

1905
01:12:09,910 --> 01:12:08,320
investigators and no more material was

1906
01:12:12,070 --> 01:12:09,920
forthcoming from guardian

1907
01:12:13,350 --> 01:12:12,080
the investigation more or less hit a

1908
01:12:15,270 --> 01:12:13,360
standstill there was

1909
01:12:17,189 --> 01:12:15,280
really nothing that anyone could could

1910
01:12:20,550 --> 01:12:17,199
do with this you know

1911
01:12:23,910 --> 01:12:20,560
bob tried to find more people to

1912
01:12:26,229 --> 01:12:23,920
corroborate his encounter and

1913
01:12:27,830 --> 01:12:26,239
the canadian investigators really felt

1914
01:12:29,110 --> 01:12:27,840
like he was trying to create a narrative

1915
01:12:30,630 --> 01:12:29,120
out of it they didn't like his

1916
01:12:32,149 --> 01:12:30,640
investigative mess of the methods they

1917
01:12:32,870 --> 01:12:32,159
didn't like the way that he was trying

1918
01:12:35,990 --> 01:12:32,880
to

1919
01:12:37,590 --> 01:12:36,000
um sort of mold other people's um

1920
01:12:39,110 --> 01:12:37,600
sightings or experiences and connect

1921
01:12:40,070 --> 01:12:39,120
them to the guardian case even though

1922
01:12:42,630 --> 01:12:40,080
they didn't um

1923
01:12:43,750 --> 01:12:42,640
one of the people in the uh ufo town

1924
01:12:46,950 --> 01:12:43,760
documentary

1925
01:12:49,189 --> 01:12:46,960
um she was on i think the encounters

1926
01:12:50,790 --> 01:12:49,199
program came right out and said that you

1927
01:12:52,390 --> 01:12:50,800
know she had this encounter she saw

1928
01:12:54,229 --> 01:12:52,400
something in the air at that time

1929
01:12:55,590 --> 01:12:54,239
but she didn't have you know she didn't

1930
01:12:57,270 --> 01:12:55,600
have anything to do with the guardian

1931
01:12:58,709 --> 01:12:57,280
case she wasn't in that area it wasn't

1932
01:12:59,189 --> 01:12:58,719
during that time when guardian made that

1933
01:13:02,310 --> 01:12:59,199
tape

1934
01:13:04,149 --> 01:13:02,320
but on the show um they spun it like it

1935
01:13:06,470 --> 01:13:04,159
like it did you know and the way

1936
01:13:08,229 --> 01:13:06,480
in these shows sometimes do so so there

1937
01:13:10,070 --> 01:13:08,239
was a lot of animosity between um the

1938
01:13:11,669 --> 01:13:10,080
canadians and and bob axler who they

1939
01:13:14,149 --> 01:13:11,679
felt was really trying to sort of

1940
01:13:15,510 --> 01:13:14,159
monetize this case he was he really

1941
01:13:16,870 --> 01:13:15,520
wanted to uh

1942
01:13:18,310 --> 01:13:16,880
write the book and sell the book and

1943
01:13:20,229 --> 01:13:18,320
whenever there was media coverage he

1944
01:13:23,830 --> 01:13:20,239
wanted to be the one by himself

1945
01:13:25,110 --> 01:13:23,840
on these programs it's just it sort of

1946
01:13:26,709 --> 01:13:25,120
um

1947
01:13:28,870 --> 01:13:26,719
sort of muddied the waters of the case

1948
01:13:30,790 --> 01:13:28,880
you know it's sort of

1949
01:13:32,390 --> 01:13:30,800
if there was a legitimate phenomenon

1950
01:13:34,550 --> 01:13:32,400
there between

1951
01:13:36,149 --> 01:13:34,560
um excellent sort of questionable

1952
01:13:38,470 --> 01:13:36,159
investigative methods

1953
01:13:40,310 --> 01:13:38,480
and um sort of the bad blood between

1954
01:13:41,990 --> 01:13:40,320
both groups and investigators

1955
01:13:43,910 --> 01:13:42,000
it kind of just ruined any real chance

1956
01:13:45,669 --> 01:13:43,920
to explore what could have been

1957
01:13:49,990 --> 01:13:45,679
a legitimate phenomenon taking place in

1958
01:13:55,990 --> 01:13:53,350
um so how did this

1959
01:13:58,630 --> 01:13:56,000
actually get broken down into like

1960
01:14:00,950 --> 01:13:58,640
figuring out what it was

1961
01:14:02,390 --> 01:14:00,960
well the funny thing is is that um it's

1962
01:14:04,149 --> 01:14:02,400
actually not mentioned in the ufo time

1963
01:14:05,830 --> 01:14:04,159
documentary because again it's just

1964
01:14:07,669 --> 01:14:05,840
it's a 45 minute documentary and there's

1965
01:14:08,550 --> 01:14:07,679
so many disparate threads that you sort

1966
01:14:10,790 --> 01:14:08,560
of have to

1967
01:14:12,229 --> 01:14:10,800
focus on one and not get into all these

1968
01:14:14,310 --> 01:14:12,239
various tangents even though they all

1969
01:14:16,229 --> 01:14:14,320
tell the whole story but the

1970
01:14:18,310 --> 01:14:16,239
rcmp was actually involved in the case

1971
01:14:20,630 --> 01:14:18,320
at one point

1972
01:14:21,750 --> 01:14:20,640
one of the witnesses who was working

1973
01:14:24,950 --> 01:14:21,760
with bob exler

1974
01:14:26,550 --> 01:14:24,960
had talked to them about low-flying

1975
01:14:28,390 --> 01:14:26,560
helicopters in the area because the rcmp

1976
01:14:30,870 --> 01:14:28,400
does not investigate ufos

1977
01:14:32,550 --> 01:14:30,880
so their way uh exceller's way of trying

1978
01:14:33,910 --> 01:14:32,560
to bring them into the investigation

1979
01:14:35,510 --> 01:14:33,920
in a way of sort of making it seem

1980
01:14:35,750 --> 01:14:35,520
legitimate it was a way for him to sort

1981
01:14:36,870 --> 01:14:35,760
of

1982
01:14:39,270 --> 01:14:36,880
look at me i'm working with the

1983
01:14:41,030 --> 01:14:39,280
government on this was to

1984
01:14:42,550 --> 01:14:41,040
have them investigate the helicopter

1985
01:14:44,229 --> 01:14:42,560
component because helicopters are

1986
01:14:47,830 --> 01:14:44,239
allowed not allowed to fly below

1987
01:14:49,910 --> 01:14:47,840
a certain uh it's like 500 feet um

1988
01:14:51,750 --> 01:14:49,920
so there was an rcmp investigation into

1989
01:14:53,990 --> 01:14:51,760
this they sent out an investigator

1990
01:14:55,669 --> 01:14:54,000
and because the low fine helicopters

1991
01:14:57,189 --> 01:14:55,679
which were seen sometimes in conjunction

1992
01:14:59,510 --> 01:14:57,199
with the ufo sightings

1993
01:15:00,630 --> 01:14:59,520
was was tied into the case so much this

1994
01:15:02,310 --> 01:15:00,640
constable

1995
01:15:04,550 --> 01:15:02,320
almost inadvertently kind of had to

1996
01:15:06,390 --> 01:15:04,560
investigate the ufo case as well

1997
01:15:08,070 --> 01:15:06,400
and he became convinced after speaking

1998
01:15:08,709 --> 01:15:08,080
to a lot of experts who looked at the

1999
01:15:11,270 --> 01:15:08,719
tape

2000
01:15:12,709 --> 01:15:11,280
um there there was a lot i mean it's on

2001
01:15:13,430 --> 01:15:12,719
a flight path there's a military base

2002
01:15:16,470 --> 01:15:13,440
out there

2003
01:15:18,229 --> 01:15:16,480
um he became convinced that it was a um

2004
01:15:20,310 --> 01:15:18,239
night exercises that it's a helicopter

2005
01:15:21,510 --> 01:15:20,320
on the tape with um with flares that

2006
01:15:24,229 --> 01:15:21,520
they use for

2007
01:15:24,550 --> 01:15:24,239
night exercises the only problem with

2008
01:15:30,149 --> 01:15:24,560
that

2009
01:15:31,830 --> 01:15:30,159
are not like the red burning flares

2010
01:15:33,910 --> 01:15:31,840
these are just like simple road flares

2011
01:15:35,669 --> 01:15:33,920
the the flares that they use in the

2012
01:15:37,510 --> 01:15:35,679
night exercises are actually infrared

2013
01:15:39,669 --> 01:15:37,520
flares that only show up when they're

2014
01:15:40,790 --> 01:15:39,679
using infrared night vision goggles

2015
01:15:42,550 --> 01:15:40,800
which is the point of the night

2016
01:15:44,149 --> 01:15:42,560
exercises they try to hover

2017
01:15:45,990 --> 01:15:44,159
um as close to the ground without

2018
01:15:47,910 --> 01:15:46,000
landing in some of these exercises it's

2019
01:15:50,070 --> 01:15:47,920
it's the purpose of those kinds of uh

2020
01:15:52,950 --> 01:15:50,080
that type of training

2021
01:15:53,270 --> 01:15:52,960
there was a lot more um support towards

2022
01:16:00,790 --> 01:15:53,280
the

2023
01:16:04,229 --> 01:16:00,800
were involved in a hoax

2024
01:16:06,070 --> 01:16:04,239
um there was um if you look at some

2025
01:16:07,270 --> 01:16:06,080
frames of the of the of the videotape

2026
01:16:08,950 --> 01:16:07,280
and it's hard i mean it's not a first

2027
01:16:09,750 --> 01:16:08,960
generation videotape this is a video

2028
01:16:13,910 --> 01:16:09,760
from

2029
01:16:15,830 --> 01:16:13,920
not this is long before hd

2030
01:16:17,189 --> 01:16:15,840
that we get on our phones but there are

2031
01:16:19,030 --> 01:16:17,199
a lot of shots where it looks just

2032
01:16:20,310 --> 01:16:19,040
like a truck basically like a pickup

2033
01:16:22,870 --> 01:16:20,320
truck at an angle

2034
01:16:23,430 --> 01:16:22,880
um it's it's also worth noting that one

2035
01:16:26,550 --> 01:16:23,440
of the

2036
01:16:29,350 --> 01:16:26,560
ufo investigators tom theophinus um

2037
01:16:30,870 --> 01:16:29,360
ran a uh windshield repair company for

2038
01:16:32,229 --> 01:16:30,880
for a time so this is a guy who knows

2039
01:16:33,270 --> 01:16:32,239
what windshields look like you know and

2040
01:16:34,950 --> 01:16:33,280
he was able to

2041
01:16:36,630 --> 01:16:34,960
pretty much identify it to a type of

2042
01:16:38,390 --> 01:16:36,640
truck that um

2043
01:16:39,669 --> 01:16:38,400
was owned by one of the people who was

2044
01:16:45,030 --> 01:16:39,679
suspected of um

2045
01:16:47,350 --> 01:16:46,070
i mean i don't want to say that it was

2046
01:16:48,550 --> 01:16:47,360
definitely i mean short of having signed

2047
01:16:49,750 --> 01:16:48,560
confessions from the hoaxers which

2048
01:16:51,590 --> 01:16:49,760
you're never going to get

2049
01:16:52,790 --> 01:16:51,600
i mean in the eye in the minds of the

2050
01:16:53,910 --> 01:16:52,800
people that were very seriously

2051
01:16:56,149 --> 01:16:53,920
investigated myself

2052
01:16:57,270 --> 01:16:56,159
included we're all pretty convinced that

2053
01:16:59,750 --> 01:16:57,280
it was a hoax

2054
01:17:00,790 --> 01:16:59,760
um we're pretty sure we know who did it

2055
01:17:02,070 --> 01:17:00,800
i mean i want to name them because i

2056
01:17:03,830 --> 01:17:02,080
mean it's a privacy thing

2057
01:17:05,350 --> 01:17:03,840
nothing comes from from from naming

2058
01:17:07,830 --> 01:17:05,360
these people but

2059
01:17:09,189 --> 01:17:07,840
um the fact that nothing else really

2060
01:17:10,790 --> 01:17:09,199
came from that time and guardian was

2061
01:17:12,470 --> 01:17:10,800
never heard from again

2062
01:17:13,990 --> 01:17:12,480
um sort of says to me that there wasn't

2063
01:17:15,590 --> 01:17:14,000
really anything there at least in terms

2064
01:17:16,709 --> 01:17:15,600
of what guardian was reporting

2065
01:17:18,470 --> 01:17:16,719
um i just think it's really too bad

2066
01:17:20,470 --> 01:17:18,480
because it definitely seemed like um as

2067
01:17:22,070 --> 01:17:20,480
you see in the ufo town documentary

2068
01:17:23,510 --> 01:17:22,080
people were seeing stuff in that area

2069
01:17:25,030 --> 01:17:23,520
there were a lot of sightings many

2070
01:17:26,870 --> 01:17:25,040
sightings independent

2071
01:17:29,350 --> 01:17:26,880
of of guardian and and what you would

2072
01:17:30,790 --> 01:17:29,360
call a wave you know a ufo wave from i

2073
01:17:33,990 --> 01:17:30,800
would say 88 to

2074
01:17:36,470 --> 01:17:34,000
93 94. um

2075
01:17:38,229 --> 01:17:36,480
i wish that more attention had been

2076
01:17:40,149 --> 01:17:38,239
focused on that

2077
01:17:42,149 --> 01:17:40,159
and rather than trying to chase this

2078
01:17:43,590 --> 01:17:42,159
this uh guardian suspect around even

2079
01:17:45,430 --> 01:17:43,600
though i can totally understand why they

2080
01:17:47,189 --> 01:17:45,440
did again it's a very compelling case

2081
01:17:48,470 --> 01:17:47,199
right i mean it's it really is like

2082
01:17:50,149 --> 01:17:48,480
you're in a movie you're trying to track

2083
01:17:52,070 --> 01:17:50,159
down this ufo whistleblower

2084
01:17:54,390 --> 01:17:52,080
like something right out of the x-files

2085
01:17:56,950 --> 01:17:54,400
yeah i'm surprised in a way that

2086
01:17:58,310 --> 01:17:56,960
after all this time the person hasn't

2087
01:18:00,630 --> 01:17:58,320
said hey guess what

2088
01:18:01,830 --> 01:18:00,640
it was me but i mean a lot of love they

2089
01:18:03,110 --> 01:18:01,840
would really have to have a lot of

2090
01:18:04,790 --> 01:18:03,120
information

2091
01:18:06,390 --> 01:18:04,800
before they could just come forward i

2092
01:18:08,310 --> 01:18:06,400
would think they would have to say

2093
01:18:09,669 --> 01:18:08,320
you know where they were exactly and you

2094
01:18:12,550 --> 01:18:09,679
know all that uh

2095
01:18:14,709 --> 01:18:12,560
i would imagine well i'm still surprised

2096
01:18:16,470 --> 01:18:14,719
the the the person that was suspected

2097
01:18:18,470 --> 01:18:16,480
um was contacted to be part of the

2098
01:18:19,830 --> 01:18:18,480
documentary he chose not to but after

2099
01:18:21,510 --> 01:18:19,840
speaking with him we

2100
01:18:23,110 --> 01:18:21,520
are now just generally he had nothing to

2101
01:18:24,149 --> 01:18:23,120
do with it i mean for for various

2102
01:18:26,070 --> 01:18:24,159
reasons

2103
01:18:27,590 --> 01:18:26,080
um why why he just didn't say that at

2104
01:18:28,550 --> 01:18:27,600
the time that there's also some reasons

2105
01:18:31,270 --> 01:18:28,560
about that

2106
01:18:32,950 --> 01:18:31,280
in terms of maybe uh mental capacity but

2107
01:18:34,310 --> 01:18:32,960
uh i firmly believe that

2108
01:18:35,750 --> 01:18:34,320
this person had nothing to do with it

2109
01:18:37,110 --> 01:18:35,760
and i was the one that for years was

2110
01:18:38,630 --> 01:18:37,120
like yeah the same thing why doesn't

2111
01:18:39,910 --> 01:18:38,640
this guy just say something

2112
01:18:40,870 --> 01:18:39,920
even as a hoax i mean it's not he's

2113
01:18:42,310 --> 01:18:40,880
gonna be charged with anything there was

2114
01:18:45,510 --> 01:18:42,320
no crime committed

2115
01:18:47,189 --> 01:18:45,520
um but even the the people who um who i

2116
01:18:48,950 --> 01:18:47,199
do believe were involved um

2117
01:18:50,790 --> 01:18:48,960
they're still around and they're active

2118
01:18:51,910 --> 01:18:50,800
on social media and it's not a

2119
01:18:55,350 --> 01:18:51,920
coincidence that they've

2120
01:18:57,430 --> 01:18:55,360
moved into um kind of the scarier

2121
01:18:59,350 --> 01:18:57,440
forms of conspiracy the sort of very

2122
01:19:01,910 --> 01:18:59,360
right-wing q and on stuff

2123
01:19:03,430 --> 01:19:01,920
which if you read the guardian documents

2124
01:19:05,750 --> 01:19:03,440
it's like the precursor to that

2125
01:19:07,189 --> 01:19:05,760
i mean it's uh they're spooky i mean

2126
01:19:09,910 --> 01:19:07,199
they're they're racist

2127
01:19:11,270 --> 01:19:09,920
um they're they promote a certain brand

2128
01:19:14,149 --> 01:19:11,280
of white supremacy like

2129
01:19:15,030 --> 01:19:14,159
it's you you go into the conspiracy uh

2130
01:19:18,550 --> 01:19:15,040
rabbit hole

2131
01:19:21,990 --> 01:19:18,560
and it starts with um you know uh aliens

2132
01:19:23,910 --> 01:19:22,000
and um you know jfk assassination

2133
01:19:25,430 --> 01:19:23,920
and then it starts to get um almost

2134
01:19:26,470 --> 01:19:25,440
creepy i mean this is what i was saying

2135
01:19:28,950 --> 01:19:26,480
about the x-files

2136
01:19:30,310 --> 01:19:28,960
the x-files um conspiracies on that

2137
01:19:32,709 --> 01:19:30,320
program they're almost quaint

2138
01:19:34,229 --> 01:19:32,719
by the conspiracies of today's standards

2139
01:19:36,310 --> 01:19:34,239
i mean back then it was just the the

2140
01:19:39,430 --> 01:19:36,320
government covering up crashed ufos

2141
01:19:40,310 --> 01:19:39,440
now it's like was 911 an inside job you

2142
01:19:42,070 --> 01:19:40,320
know and

2143
01:19:43,669 --> 01:19:42,080
um our people are the government trying

2144
01:19:46,149 --> 01:19:43,679
to kill us through uh

2145
01:19:46,950 --> 01:19:46,159
vaccines or tracking us and stuff it's

2146
01:19:49,430 --> 01:19:46,960
um

2147
01:19:49,990 --> 01:19:49,440
i don't think there would be an x-files

2148
01:19:51,510 --> 01:19:50,000
show today

2149
01:19:52,870 --> 01:19:51,520
because it wouldn't be entertaining it

2150
01:19:53,990 --> 01:19:52,880
would be too it would literally be too

2151
01:19:56,550 --> 01:19:54,000
scary i don't think anyone wants to

2152
01:19:57,990 --> 01:19:56,560
watch that program you know it's uh

2153
01:20:00,070 --> 01:19:58,000
this is what i mean when i say that the

2154
01:20:00,709 --> 01:20:00,080
the conspiracy the x-files were almost

2155
01:20:02,550 --> 01:20:00,719
um

2156
01:20:04,470 --> 01:20:02,560
quaint uh in their time you go back at

2157
01:20:06,709 --> 01:20:04,480
them and it was like it's very clearly

2158
01:20:07,510 --> 01:20:06,719
delineated lines between good and evil

2159
01:20:09,750 --> 01:20:07,520
and now it's

2160
01:20:10,790 --> 01:20:09,760
um it's like we've all become the most

2161
01:20:12,950 --> 01:20:10,800
paranoid

2162
01:20:14,390 --> 01:20:12,960
mulder self you know where who do you

2163
01:20:15,669 --> 01:20:14,400
trust no one you can't trust anyone you

2164
01:20:17,590 --> 01:20:15,679
can't trust your government

2165
01:20:19,830 --> 01:20:17,600
yeah trust your doctor you know it's

2166
01:20:22,390 --> 01:20:19,840
just it's uh

2167
01:20:24,070 --> 01:20:22,400
it's a spooky place so i'm not surprised

2168
01:20:25,669 --> 01:20:24,080
that uh when we uh

2169
01:20:28,390 --> 01:20:25,679
try to track down the people that we

2170
01:20:30,709 --> 01:20:28,400
thought were responsible for the hoax

2171
01:20:32,229 --> 01:20:30,719
that they're still very active in the

2172
01:20:35,669 --> 01:20:32,239
conspiracy world

2173
01:20:39,910 --> 01:20:35,679
and now they lean very very hard towards

2174
01:20:43,030 --> 01:20:39,920
the spooky the spooky kind

2175
01:20:44,390 --> 01:20:43,040
yeah no it's it's true i mean i'm i'm

2176
01:20:45,750 --> 01:20:44,400
off of social media for

2177
01:20:47,830 --> 01:20:45,760
for the most part i do a little bit of

2178
01:20:51,669 --> 01:20:47,840
twitter but yeah i mean

2179
01:20:54,790 --> 01:20:51,679
the conspiracies are are kind of uh

2180
01:20:58,229 --> 01:20:54,800
hard to take after a while

2181
01:21:00,229 --> 01:20:58,239
so okay so let's talk about what else

2182
01:21:01,669 --> 01:21:00,239
has happened in that area what what

2183
01:21:04,390 --> 01:21:01,679
makes and

2184
01:21:05,270 --> 01:21:04,400
would you say that that area is still a

2185
01:21:07,750 --> 01:21:05,280
hot spot and

2186
01:21:09,830 --> 01:21:07,760
and where is it geographically exactly

2187
01:21:10,790 --> 01:21:09,840
yeah it's um it's in eastern ontario

2188
01:21:12,470 --> 01:21:10,800
it's about

2189
01:21:13,910 --> 01:21:12,480
uh it's called west carleton and that's

2190
01:21:14,870 --> 01:21:13,920
sort of the region that encompasses

2191
01:21:16,709 --> 01:21:14,880
towns like carp

2192
01:21:18,629 --> 01:21:16,719
which is where the ufo incident uh sort

2193
01:21:20,790 --> 01:21:18,639
of the guardians that took place uh

2194
01:21:22,149 --> 01:21:20,800
carlton place uh almont or some of these

2195
01:21:24,709 --> 01:21:22,159
other small towns

2196
01:21:25,590 --> 01:21:24,719
uh it's a rural like a farming community

2197
01:21:28,709 --> 01:21:25,600
but it's kind of

2198
01:21:30,390 --> 01:21:28,719
actually exploded in the past 30 years i

2199
01:21:32,310 --> 01:21:30,400
remember when we went up for the to film

2200
01:21:33,830 --> 01:21:32,320
the documentary

2201
01:21:35,990 --> 01:21:33,840
there's a lot of places where it's still

2202
01:21:37,110 --> 01:21:36,000
the same six houses along the road

2203
01:21:38,390 --> 01:21:37,120
and then you go down a street and

2204
01:21:39,830 --> 01:21:38,400
there's a housing development there

2205
01:21:42,310 --> 01:21:39,840
where there used to be like a field

2206
01:21:43,910 --> 01:21:42,320
so it's uh it has exploded in a lot of

2207
01:21:46,950 --> 01:21:43,920
ways but in other ways it's still

2208
01:21:48,950 --> 01:21:46,960
it's still very rural um it's still very

2209
01:21:51,510 --> 01:21:48,960
picturesque it's a beautiful place

2210
01:21:52,310 --> 01:21:51,520
i have not heard of any recent sightings

2211
01:21:55,990 --> 01:21:52,320
in that area

2212
01:21:59,030 --> 01:21:56,000
i think that flap of the late 90s

2213
01:22:02,229 --> 01:21:59,040
or late 80s early 90s was um

2214
01:22:03,510 --> 01:22:02,239
was the last at least to date um i have

2215
01:22:03,910 --> 01:22:03,520
not heard of anything happening that

2216
01:22:05,590 --> 01:22:03,920
area

2217
01:22:06,950 --> 01:22:05,600
and i sort of i keep a toe in ufology

2218
01:22:07,830 --> 01:22:06,960
i'm not a i'm not an investigator

2219
01:22:09,510 --> 01:22:07,840
anymore

2220
01:22:11,430 --> 01:22:09,520
but i sort of keep uh up to date with

2221
01:22:12,870 --> 01:22:11,440
what's going on especially in canada

2222
01:22:14,629 --> 01:22:12,880
and i haven't really heard anything in

2223
01:22:15,990 --> 01:22:14,639
that area except for except for guardian

2224
01:22:16,629 --> 01:22:16,000
you know guardian pops up every now and

2225
01:22:18,390 --> 01:22:16,639
again

2226
01:22:19,750 --> 01:22:18,400
um when the unsolved mysteries cliff

2227
01:22:21,030 --> 01:22:19,760
starts to circulate and people sort of

2228
01:22:22,790 --> 01:22:21,040
say hey whatever happened

2229
01:22:24,470 --> 01:22:22,800
with that case and i think that's

2230
01:22:27,430 --> 01:22:24,480
probably why um

2231
01:22:29,030 --> 01:22:27,440
uh the people that made ufo town uh nick

2232
01:22:30,790 --> 01:22:29,040
crowe and uh katie lemare

2233
01:22:31,990 --> 01:22:30,800
um decided to do a documentary but in

2234
01:22:32,870 --> 01:22:32,000
the first place because it is so

2235
01:22:33,990 --> 01:22:32,880
interesting and

2236
01:22:35,510 --> 01:22:34,000
whatever happened with those people

2237
01:22:36,790 --> 01:22:35,520
whatever happened with that case you

2238
01:22:39,750 --> 01:22:36,800
know it's uh

2239
01:22:40,390 --> 01:22:39,760
it's still a mystery right right now i

2240
01:22:42,550 --> 01:22:40,400
know you do

2241
01:22:43,990 --> 01:22:42,560
a lot of other things as well and i

2242
01:22:45,990 --> 01:22:44,000
believe i saw that

2243
01:22:47,510 --> 01:22:46,000
you have uh that something's coming out

2244
01:22:49,350 --> 01:22:47,520
on film or something

2245
01:22:51,510 --> 01:22:49,360
that you have worked on yeah i'm a

2246
01:22:53,110 --> 01:22:51,520
writer right now i write i write fiction

2247
01:22:54,629 --> 01:22:53,120
i write mostly horror fiction some

2248
01:22:58,790 --> 01:22:54,639
detective fiction and

2249
01:23:00,629 --> 01:22:58,800
yeah recently um one of my stories um

2250
01:23:03,110 --> 01:23:00,639
it's a sort of a haunted house story

2251
01:23:06,470 --> 01:23:03,120
called uh the house on ashley avenue

2252
01:23:08,149 --> 01:23:06,480
is going to be adapted for film um

2253
01:23:10,629 --> 01:23:08,159
for a netflix film actually and it's

2254
01:23:13,830 --> 01:23:10,639
been produced by uh sam raimi

2255
01:23:15,350 --> 01:23:13,840
and it's been uh directed by uh corn

2256
01:23:16,790 --> 01:23:15,360
hardy who directed a couple of horror

2257
01:23:19,189 --> 01:23:16,800
movies called uh the nun

2258
01:23:21,270 --> 01:23:19,199
and uh the holo so it's a it's a really

2259
01:23:22,390 --> 01:23:21,280
uh really exciting time for me because

2260
01:23:24,070 --> 01:23:22,400
um yeah

2261
01:23:25,430 --> 01:23:24,080
these are people that i've always wanted

2262
01:23:26,629 --> 01:23:25,440
to work with it's uh

2263
01:23:28,310 --> 01:23:26,639
as i always say it's like it's like it's

2264
01:23:29,350 --> 01:23:28,320
like the film version of having stephen

2265
01:23:30,629 --> 01:23:29,360
king come up to you and say hey you want

2266
01:23:31,270 --> 01:23:30,639
to write a book together you know like

2267
01:23:36,310 --> 01:23:31,280
this is

2268
01:23:38,070 --> 01:23:36,320
it's pretty it's pretty exciting yeah

2269
01:23:40,470 --> 01:23:38,080
yeah and um

2270
01:23:42,629 --> 01:23:40,480
so but getting back to like the ufo

2271
01:23:43,510 --> 01:23:42,639
topic up there you can there he is again

2272
01:23:47,750 --> 01:23:43,520
great yeah

2273
01:23:48,629 --> 01:23:47,760
uh how uh how often do you look into

2274
01:23:52,709 --> 01:23:48,639
that

2275
01:23:55,030 --> 01:23:52,719
topic

2276
01:23:56,470 --> 01:23:55,040
um well i can tell you fiction wise i've

2277
01:23:57,430 --> 01:23:56,480
written i written and wrote a novel

2278
01:24:00,149 --> 01:23:57,440
about it it was

2279
01:24:01,270 --> 01:24:00,159
uh it's sort of a tongue-in-cheek satire

2280
01:24:02,629 --> 01:24:01,280
of ufology not not

2281
01:24:04,950 --> 01:24:02,639
making fun of it kind of a way but sort

2282
01:24:08,149 --> 01:24:04,960
of a uh like a doctor strange love

2283
01:24:09,750 --> 01:24:08,159
kind of a way sort of a uh um a look at

2284
01:24:10,390 --> 01:24:09,760
governments and conspiracies and sort of

2285
01:24:12,709 --> 01:24:10,400
how they run

2286
01:24:14,470 --> 01:24:12,719
it's also about family too so it's uh it

2287
01:24:18,149 --> 01:24:14,480
actually has a lot of heart to it

2288
01:24:19,750 --> 01:24:18,159
on a uh on the actual level of ufology

2289
01:24:21,270 --> 01:24:19,760
it's really just a matter of keeping up

2290
01:24:23,430 --> 01:24:21,280
to date with uh

2291
01:24:25,110 --> 01:24:23,440
with um the latest cases such as they

2292
01:24:26,709 --> 01:24:25,120
are you know i sort of uh i follow the

2293
01:24:28,310 --> 01:24:26,719
blogs of all the major websites i like

2294
01:24:29,910 --> 01:24:28,320
reading kevin randall's stuff he's got a

2295
01:24:31,189 --> 01:24:29,920
great yeah where he just dissects stuff

2296
01:24:33,030 --> 01:24:31,199
he seems pretty uh

2297
01:24:35,030 --> 01:24:33,040
pretty level-headed and i just he just

2298
01:24:37,030 --> 01:24:35,040
seems like a guy who's just like

2299
01:24:38,709 --> 01:24:37,040
he's not trying to make excuses about

2300
01:24:40,070 --> 01:24:38,719
about like the roswell case even though

2301
01:24:41,189 --> 01:24:40,080
his opinions have changed on it over the

2302
01:24:43,110 --> 01:24:41,199
years i think

2303
01:24:45,270 --> 01:24:43,120
i think yeah it's the people that are

2304
01:24:47,750 --> 01:24:45,280
sort of steadfastly sticking to their

2305
01:24:50,629 --> 01:24:47,760
guns and even in the light of uh

2306
01:24:52,149 --> 01:24:50,639
of of things that come come true or new

2307
01:24:54,070 --> 01:24:52,159
information that comes to light

2308
01:24:55,669 --> 01:24:54,080
um you don't want to believe them as

2309
01:24:58,709 --> 01:24:55,679
much because i think this is

2310
01:24:59,430 --> 01:24:58,719
it's such a fluid um subject matter that

2311
01:25:00,790 --> 01:24:59,440
i think it's

2312
01:25:02,470 --> 01:25:00,800
it only makes sense that people's

2313
01:25:05,910 --> 01:25:02,480
opinions change you know so

2314
01:25:07,669 --> 01:25:05,920
for me it's just like he seems like a

2315
01:25:10,629 --> 01:25:07,679
really level-headed guy you know in

2316
01:25:12,149 --> 01:25:10,639
jacques vale you know like

2317
01:25:13,910 --> 01:25:12,159
i looked him up in the past few years

2318
01:25:15,110 --> 01:25:13,920
and i thought that he had passed away i

2319
01:25:16,390 --> 01:25:15,120
couldn't believe he's still with us it's

2320
01:25:16,950 --> 01:25:16,400
like thank god he was like wow he's

2321
01:25:18,310 --> 01:25:16,960
still here

2322
01:25:20,229 --> 01:25:18,320
he's still fighting the good fight which

2323
01:25:24,470 --> 01:25:20,239
is great because uh yeah

2324
01:25:27,270 --> 01:25:24,480
uh again um his book as a passport to

2325
01:25:28,870 --> 01:25:27,280
magnolia or magoglia uh i'm butchering

2326
01:25:30,629 --> 01:25:28,880
that i read that like 20 years ago but i

2327
01:25:31,750 --> 01:25:30,639
mean it's like it's the it's the book on

2328
01:25:34,870 --> 01:25:31,760
ufology and

2329
01:25:36,629 --> 01:25:34,880
for me and the way that um uh folklore

2330
01:25:40,550 --> 01:25:36,639
has evolved over time

2331
01:25:42,470 --> 01:25:40,560
um i think that book combined with

2332
01:25:44,709 --> 01:25:42,480
john keels the mothman prophecies are

2333
01:25:46,870 --> 01:25:44,719
two of the best books on ufology because

2334
01:25:48,629 --> 01:25:46,880
they really explore the phenomenon just

2335
01:25:50,470 --> 01:25:48,639
beyond the sense of our aliens our

2336
01:25:53,590 --> 01:25:50,480
extraterrestrials visiting us

2337
01:25:54,629 --> 01:25:53,600
and they get into folklore other

2338
01:25:57,750 --> 01:25:54,639
dimensions

2339
01:25:59,189 --> 01:25:57,760
um just other explanations other than

2340
01:26:00,470 --> 01:25:59,199
you know the typical scientific one

2341
01:26:02,229 --> 01:26:00,480
which is usually discounted by

2342
01:26:03,910 --> 01:26:02,239
scientists that basically say

2343
01:26:05,030 --> 01:26:03,920
you know aliens and physical crafts

2344
01:26:06,310 --> 01:26:05,040
would not be able to reach us it

2345
01:26:07,990 --> 01:26:06,320
wouldn't try to reach us it doesn't

2346
01:26:10,870 --> 01:26:08,000
really make any sense with

2347
01:26:13,110 --> 01:26:10,880
physics as we understand it so um i

2348
01:26:15,590 --> 01:26:13,120
think it offers a uh

2349
01:26:17,350 --> 01:26:15,600
not even another explanation but a uh a

2350
01:26:18,629 --> 01:26:17,360
very different understanding

2351
01:26:20,709 --> 01:26:18,639
of the way that we approach that

2352
01:26:21,350 --> 01:26:20,719
phenomenon it's it's one of the reasons

2353
01:26:24,310 --> 01:26:21,360
why

2354
01:26:26,310 --> 01:26:24,320
i've always liked a book like the

2355
01:26:27,590 --> 01:26:26,320
mothman prophecies because it starts as

2356
01:26:29,430 --> 01:26:27,600
a book about

2357
01:26:32,070 --> 01:26:29,440
this seemingly about a cryptid the

2358
01:26:33,830 --> 01:26:32,080
mothman but it encompasses

2359
01:26:35,350 --> 01:26:33,840
virtually every single kind of

2360
01:26:40,629 --> 01:26:35,360
paranormal phenomenon from

2361
01:26:41,830 --> 01:26:40,639
ufo sightings to premonitions to um

2362
01:26:43,110 --> 01:26:41,840
time travel i mean everything

2363
01:26:44,390 --> 01:26:43,120
everything's in that book it's just like

2364
01:26:45,750 --> 01:26:44,400
that's when you want to talk about a

2365
01:26:46,950 --> 01:26:45,760
flap i mean something

2366
01:26:48,870 --> 01:26:46,960
definitely seemed like it was happening

2367
01:26:49,270 --> 01:26:48,880
in point pleasant during those those 18

2368
01:26:51,110 --> 01:26:49,280
months

2369
01:26:52,629 --> 01:26:51,120
that uh culminated with the collapse of

2370
01:26:55,030 --> 01:26:52,639
the silver bridge right uh

2371
01:26:56,310 --> 01:26:55,040
it's uh those are the books that i like

2372
01:26:57,830 --> 01:26:56,320
you know those are that's the way that i

2373
01:26:59,510 --> 01:26:57,840
like to really explore the phenomenon

2374
01:27:00,709 --> 01:26:59,520
isn't it isn't a global way where it's

2375
01:27:03,350 --> 01:27:00,719
not just

2376
01:27:04,870 --> 01:27:03,360
here's a video um what could this thing

2377
01:27:06,550 --> 01:27:04,880
be it's it's like the

2378
01:27:07,990 --> 01:27:06,560
the recent navy videos like i watched

2379
01:27:09,189 --> 01:27:08,000
the 60 minute segment and i thought it

2380
01:27:11,590 --> 01:27:09,199
was interesting

2381
01:27:13,030 --> 01:27:11,600
insofar as yeah the videos look cool you

2382
01:27:14,229 --> 01:27:13,040
know i don't know i don't think that

2383
01:27:16,390 --> 01:27:14,239
they're aliens but

2384
01:27:18,390 --> 01:27:16,400
maybe they are but it's just it's it's

2385
01:27:21,669 --> 01:27:18,400
like in this day and age now

2386
01:27:23,189 --> 01:27:21,679
um you see a video or a photo which can

2387
01:27:25,830 --> 01:27:23,199
be so easily faked

2388
01:27:26,709 --> 01:27:25,840
um i need more than that to be convinced

2389
01:27:28,390 --> 01:27:26,719
i'm not going to look at those

2390
01:27:30,149 --> 01:27:28,400
videotapes i certainly didn't watch that

2391
01:27:31,750 --> 01:27:30,159
60 minutes segment and go oh it must be

2392
01:27:33,510 --> 01:27:31,760
aliens you know it's just

2393
01:27:34,790 --> 01:27:33,520
i'm interested i'm keeping an open mind

2394
01:27:36,149 --> 01:27:34,800
but you got to give me more than that

2395
01:27:37,750 --> 01:27:36,159
you know it's uh

2396
01:27:39,750 --> 01:27:37,760
i think well i don't think i don't think

2397
01:27:42,790 --> 01:27:39,760
the navy is going to be putting out

2398
01:27:45,189 --> 01:27:42,800
fake videos no no and i i just think

2399
01:27:46,870 --> 01:27:45,199
that maybe not faked but maybe

2400
01:27:48,950 --> 01:27:46,880
mis-identified i guess you know like

2401
01:27:52,390 --> 01:27:48,960
they're they're definitely interesting

2402
01:27:55,030 --> 01:27:52,400
but what can really be um

2403
01:27:56,790 --> 01:27:55,040
what can really be um extrapolated from

2404
01:27:58,790 --> 01:27:56,800
them you know like it's it's

2405
01:28:00,310 --> 01:27:58,800
them the the pilots as witnesses are a

2406
01:28:01,590 --> 01:28:00,320
lot are very compelling because they

2407
01:28:03,910 --> 01:28:01,600
seem like they

2408
01:28:05,910 --> 01:28:03,920
are confused by what they're seeing so

2409
01:28:08,790 --> 01:28:05,920
that that definitely goes a long way

2410
01:28:10,790 --> 01:28:08,800
but again um there's a certain segment

2411
01:28:12,470 --> 01:28:10,800
of the public especially the uh the

2412
01:28:13,430 --> 01:28:12,480
people the public that's interested in

2413
01:28:15,590 --> 01:28:13,440
ufos

2414
01:28:17,910 --> 01:28:15,600
and they see a headline that says navy

2415
01:28:20,870 --> 01:28:17,920
admits to study on ufos

2416
01:28:21,990 --> 01:28:20,880
and they hear navy says ufos are

2417
01:28:23,030 --> 01:28:22,000
definitely aliens

2418
01:28:24,229 --> 01:28:23,040
and like that's of course that's not

2419
01:28:25,910 --> 01:28:24,239
what they're saying right but that's

2420
01:28:27,110 --> 01:28:25,920
what they hear they hear ufo and they

2421
01:28:28,070 --> 01:28:27,120
immediately think alien when all they're

2422
01:28:29,910 --> 01:28:28,080
saying is we're just saying it's

2423
01:28:31,990 --> 01:28:29,920
unidentified we don't know what it is

2424
01:28:33,189 --> 01:28:32,000
yeah well i think that a number of them

2425
01:28:35,830 --> 01:28:33,199
will point that out

2426
01:28:37,750 --> 01:28:35,840
um that that's you know they will remind

2427
01:28:39,830 --> 01:28:37,760
the listening audience or whatever

2428
01:28:41,189 --> 01:28:39,840
that it's unidentified and that's all it

2429
01:28:44,310 --> 01:28:41,199
is at this point

2430
01:28:45,910 --> 01:28:44,320
so uh uh jordan put in a question um i

2431
01:28:47,350 --> 01:28:45,920
hear a lot is happening with your book

2432
01:28:48,310 --> 01:28:47,360
every house is honda what's going on

2433
01:28:50,070 --> 01:28:48,320
with that

2434
01:28:51,910 --> 01:28:50,080
yeah well that's the uh that's the the

2435
01:28:53,590 --> 01:28:51,920
book that my short story the house on

2436
01:28:55,270 --> 01:28:53,600
ashley avenue was in so uh that's the

2437
01:28:58,310 --> 01:28:55,280
one that's being turned into the uh

2438
01:28:59,750 --> 01:28:58,320
the same one yeah same way yeah i'm

2439
01:29:01,590 --> 01:28:59,760
actually working on that as a as a

2440
01:29:02,950 --> 01:29:01,600
consultant too which is uh

2441
01:29:04,709 --> 01:29:02,960
which is always nice because a lot of

2442
01:29:07,350 --> 01:29:04,719
times they don't usually involve the

2443
01:29:09,270 --> 01:29:07,360
the author so uh i guess they think that

2444
01:29:10,790 --> 01:29:09,280
i can bring something to the

2445
01:29:12,149 --> 01:29:10,800
to the project because they didn't just

2446
01:29:12,950 --> 01:29:12,159
say we're just going to buy the rights

2447
01:29:16,629 --> 01:29:12,960
and

2448
01:29:18,149 --> 01:29:16,639
away we go you know yeah yeah that that

2449
01:29:20,070 --> 01:29:18,159
and then you don't have a handle on it

2450
01:29:22,390 --> 01:29:20,080
at all uh yeah

2451
01:29:23,350 --> 01:29:22,400
so interesting i think what i'm going to

2452
01:29:25,189 --> 01:29:23,360
do is uh

2453
01:29:26,870 --> 01:29:25,199
i usually do this at the last half hour

2454
01:29:28,390 --> 01:29:26,880
i might as well do it now and get the

2455
01:29:30,550 --> 01:29:28,400
audience if anyone wants to give you a

2456
01:29:30,870 --> 01:29:30,560
ring i'm going to put that phone number

2457
01:29:36,709 --> 01:29:30,880
up

2458
01:29:39,110 --> 01:29:36,719
and that number is 855-472-5483

2459
01:29:40,790 --> 01:29:39,120
so anyone wants to call in uh bill will

2460
01:29:45,430 --> 01:29:40,800
be standing by

2461
01:29:47,990 --> 01:29:45,440
and he is ready so um

2462
01:29:48,870 --> 01:29:48,000
yeah so that's interesting and and there

2463
01:30:35,910 --> 01:29:48,880
i

2464
01:30:37,750 --> 01:30:35,920
there's been hundreds or thousands of

2465
01:30:39,110 --> 01:30:37,760
them written over the years so

2466
01:30:40,550 --> 01:30:39,120
the the thing that you bring that's

2467
01:30:42,149 --> 01:30:40,560
unique to it is yourself you know you

2468
01:30:43,430 --> 01:30:42,159
don't necessarily have to come up with a

2469
01:30:45,830 --> 01:30:43,440
wacky twist to it

2470
01:30:47,430 --> 01:30:45,840
you just have to write it honestly the

2471
01:30:47,990 --> 01:30:47,440
way that you would do it and that was

2472
01:30:50,709 --> 01:30:48,000
something

2473
01:30:52,070 --> 01:30:50,719
that always really resonated with me um

2474
01:30:54,870 --> 01:30:52,080
that the crime author

2475
01:30:55,430 --> 01:30:54,880
elmore leonard said was he writes the

2476
01:30:57,110 --> 01:30:55,440
book

2477
01:30:58,790 --> 01:30:57,120
that he would want to read himself like

2478
01:31:00,830 --> 01:30:58,800
this is his rules of writing and it

2479
01:31:03,110 --> 01:31:00,840
feels like a no-brainer but i mean

2480
01:31:04,550 --> 01:31:03,120
um i mean a lot of writers really tear

2481
01:31:05,990 --> 01:31:04,560
themselves up really trying to come up

2482
01:31:07,750 --> 01:31:06,000
with something or

2483
01:31:09,430 --> 01:31:07,760
or they can be really hard on themselves

2484
01:31:11,270 --> 01:31:09,440
and myself included so i really try to

2485
01:31:12,390 --> 01:31:11,280
adhere to his rules of writing because

2486
01:31:19,030 --> 01:31:12,400
they're

2487
01:31:22,550 --> 01:31:21,430
yeah um i'm going to put we we talked

2488
01:31:24,629 --> 01:31:22,560
earlier you mentioned

2489
01:31:26,470 --> 01:31:24,639
uh kevin randall who i have a great

2490
01:31:29,110 --> 01:31:26,480
amount of respect for

2491
01:31:30,390 --> 01:31:29,120
and in the uh in the chat room i'm going

2492
01:31:32,550 --> 01:31:30,400
to put up

2493
01:31:33,430 --> 01:31:32,560
his blog because the reason i would like

2494
01:31:35,430 --> 01:31:33,440
to

2495
01:31:37,430 --> 01:31:35,440
um you know talk a little bit quickly

2496
01:31:38,709 --> 01:31:37,440
about him and put his blog out there is

2497
01:31:40,870 --> 01:31:38,719
that a lot of times when i'm trying to

2498
01:31:43,910 --> 01:31:40,880
figure out if something's

2499
01:31:45,030 --> 01:31:43,920
a really good case or not i go to

2500
01:31:47,830 --> 01:31:45,040
kevin's

2501
01:31:48,629 --> 01:31:47,840
blog and you can find 90 of the time you

2502
01:31:51,430 --> 01:31:48,639
can find

2503
01:31:54,070 --> 01:31:51,440
that case on his blog and and his uh

2504
01:31:56,870 --> 01:31:54,080
very well thought out and researched

2505
01:31:57,590 --> 01:31:56,880
you know um opinion about it so it's

2506
01:31:59,030 --> 01:31:57,600
great for

2507
01:32:00,790 --> 01:31:59,040
it's a great place for someone who's

2508
01:32:02,629 --> 01:32:00,800
just getting into looking at this topic

2509
01:32:03,990 --> 01:32:02,639
too oh absolutely well he's very

2510
01:32:04,870 --> 01:32:04,000
level-headed and he has a lot of

2511
01:32:07,910 --> 01:32:04,880
credentials

2512
01:32:08,390 --> 01:32:07,920
um but he doesn't um he doesn't lead

2513
01:32:09,830 --> 01:32:08,400
with them

2514
01:32:11,430 --> 01:32:09,840
you know he doesn't try to say well this

2515
01:32:12,950 --> 01:32:11,440
is who i am and this is my military

2516
01:32:15,750 --> 01:32:12,960
career so you should listen to me

2517
01:32:17,270 --> 01:32:15,760
dr randall yeah like like any um

2518
01:32:19,669 --> 01:32:17,280
intelligent person

2519
01:32:20,790 --> 01:32:19,679
he just he leads with his words he leads

2520
01:32:22,870 --> 01:32:20,800
with his mind

2521
01:32:24,470 --> 01:32:22,880
and um that's why i've always enjoyed

2522
01:32:24,709 --> 01:32:24,480
the blog like you said like i go back to

2523
01:32:28,149 --> 01:32:24,719
it

2524
01:32:30,149 --> 01:32:28,159
said that if you're if there's a case

2525
01:32:33,350 --> 01:32:30,159
you're interested in whether it's like

2526
01:32:37,030 --> 01:32:33,360
textbook or bob lazar or anything in the

2527
01:32:38,790 --> 01:32:37,040
in the ufo uh lore um he's usually got a

2528
01:32:40,629 --> 01:32:38,800
blog on it somewhere if not a few

2529
01:32:41,830 --> 01:32:40,639
and they're always very even keeled and

2530
01:32:45,110 --> 01:32:41,840
level-headed even

2531
01:32:47,350 --> 01:32:45,120
even um even when he's skeptical like he

2532
01:32:48,790 --> 01:32:47,360
he's not mean about it he's he's just he

2533
01:32:50,070 --> 01:32:48,800
he's willing to be convinced but he's

2534
01:32:52,470 --> 01:32:50,080
not gonna but he's not a fool

2535
01:32:53,669 --> 01:32:52,480
you know he's not convinced by by

2536
01:32:55,590 --> 01:32:53,679
someone saying

2537
01:32:57,350 --> 01:32:55,600
oh well he's just he's just real and

2538
01:32:58,709 --> 01:32:57,360
you're and you're you're uh you're

2539
01:32:59,990 --> 01:32:58,719
trying to debunk this blah blah like

2540
01:33:01,110 --> 01:33:00,000
it's usually the response to a lot of

2541
01:33:02,790 --> 01:33:01,120
skeptics i think

2542
01:33:04,709 --> 01:33:02,800
there are people who are who are active

2543
01:33:05,910 --> 01:33:04,719
debunkers but um

2544
01:33:08,070 --> 01:33:05,920
that's the way that i approach my

2545
01:33:09,350 --> 01:33:08,080
skepticism i'm not i'm interested

2546
01:33:11,189 --> 01:33:09,360
i'm willing to be convinced but i'm

2547
01:33:13,750 --> 01:33:11,199
going to need more than

2548
01:33:15,189 --> 01:33:13,760
than a blurry video or or an eyewitness

2549
01:33:16,629 --> 01:33:15,199
account of someone who says well i know

2550
01:33:18,470 --> 01:33:16,639
what i saw and it was

2551
01:33:19,669 --> 01:33:18,480
definitely not a conventional aircraft

2552
01:33:21,189 --> 01:33:19,679
and you can't convince me

2553
01:33:23,350 --> 01:33:21,199
otherwise it's like well that's okay you

2554
01:33:25,910 --> 01:33:23,360
know i'm not i'm not trying to but

2555
01:33:27,430 --> 01:33:25,920
if you're going to put that forth as

2556
01:33:28,470 --> 01:33:27,440
evidence i need i need more than that

2557
01:33:31,110 --> 01:33:28,480
you know this was

2558
01:33:32,229 --> 01:33:31,120
going back to my investigator days um i

2559
01:33:35,910 --> 01:33:32,239
always believed in

2560
01:33:37,750 --> 01:33:35,920
uh and and listening more than talking

2561
01:33:39,110 --> 01:33:37,760
as an investor just sort of um

2562
01:33:40,550 --> 01:33:39,120
almost like an oral storyteller you're

2563
01:33:41,590 --> 01:33:40,560
collecting the stories of these

2564
01:33:43,030 --> 01:33:41,600
witnesses

2565
01:33:44,149 --> 01:33:43,040
and i wouldn't really question them

2566
01:33:45,590 --> 01:33:44,159
because a lot of times there was no

2567
01:33:48,390 --> 01:33:45,600
there's no point you know like

2568
01:33:49,830 --> 01:33:48,400
they weren't this was in a time before

2569
01:33:51,430 --> 01:33:49,840
you know people had cameras on their

2570
01:33:53,350 --> 01:33:51,440
cell phones they usually didn't really

2571
01:33:55,750 --> 01:33:53,360
have any evidence you know it was

2572
01:33:57,189 --> 01:33:55,760
you had to have been carrying a camera

2573
01:33:58,629 --> 01:33:57,199
or a video camera on your person at the

2574
01:34:00,310 --> 01:33:58,639
time and most people weren't when they

2575
01:34:02,550 --> 01:34:00,320
had these encounters

2576
01:34:03,910 --> 01:34:02,560
so um you're really denied witness

2577
01:34:04,709 --> 01:34:03,920
accounts which you can't really do

2578
01:34:07,110 --> 01:34:04,719
anything with

2579
01:34:07,910 --> 01:34:07,120
so it's uh um you just have to be

2580
01:34:10,550 --> 01:34:07,920
respectful

2581
01:34:11,510 --> 01:34:10,560
and um ask your questions and and record

2582
01:34:13,110 --> 01:34:11,520
it all right so

2583
01:34:14,629 --> 01:34:13,120
yeah hope that you know that it accounts

2584
01:34:15,590 --> 01:34:14,639
for something i remember talking to

2585
01:34:17,910 --> 01:34:15,600
bruce mcabee

2586
01:34:20,149 --> 01:34:17,920
years ago when i first i mean we're

2587
01:34:23,669 --> 01:34:20,159
talking i don't know maybe

2588
01:34:25,669 --> 01:34:23,679
five seven years ago and he said that um

2589
01:34:27,270 --> 01:34:25,679
he thinks he was thinking you know even

2590
01:34:29,750 --> 01:34:27,280
though he was the video and

2591
01:34:31,590 --> 01:34:29,760
photo analyst for mufon for a long time

2592
01:34:33,750 --> 01:34:31,600
or or one of those agencies

2593
01:34:34,870 --> 01:34:33,760
um he says the witnesses are more

2594
01:34:37,590 --> 01:34:34,880
important than the image

2595
01:34:38,790 --> 01:34:37,600
and and and i i think the two of them

2596
01:34:41,590 --> 01:34:38,800
together

2597
01:34:43,270 --> 01:34:41,600
you know makes more sense but i mean if

2598
01:34:44,790 --> 01:34:43,280
your witness is off i understand what

2599
01:34:45,669 --> 01:34:44,800
he's saying about that if the witness is

2600
01:34:48,709 --> 01:34:45,679
off or

2601
01:34:51,430 --> 01:34:48,719
it doesn't hold up then um you know

2602
01:34:52,950 --> 01:34:51,440
uh then there could be a question we do

2603
01:34:55,430 --> 01:34:52,960
have uh russell

2604
01:34:58,629 --> 01:34:55,440
on uh holt from maryland well welcome to

2605
01:35:01,830 --> 01:35:00,870
hey mark how are you i'm doing well

2606
01:35:03,030 --> 01:35:01,840
thanks for the call

2607
01:35:06,709 --> 01:35:03,040
you have a question for our guests

2608
01:35:07,990 --> 01:35:06,719
tonight yes

2609
01:35:10,149 --> 01:35:08,000
we've been seeing that the navy's

2610
01:35:11,030 --> 01:35:10,159
admitted to i mean questioning the

2611
01:35:14,470 --> 01:35:11,040
unbelief

2612
01:35:15,590 --> 01:35:14,480
the incredible um aerodynamic things

2613
01:35:17,910 --> 01:35:15,600
that they're doing

2614
01:35:19,270 --> 01:35:17,920
don't think that any other entity or

2615
01:35:21,189 --> 01:35:19,280
country in the world that had that

2616
01:35:23,430 --> 01:35:21,199
technology they'd be number one and

2617
01:35:24,470 --> 01:35:23,440
we'd already be in the can as far as

2618
01:35:27,189 --> 01:35:24,480
number one

2619
01:35:27,669 --> 01:35:27,199
as a superpower i mean needless to say

2620
01:35:29,830 --> 01:35:27,679
if

2621
01:35:31,830 --> 01:35:29,840
that's the technology they have we're

2622
01:35:34,470 --> 01:35:31,840
done why aren't they using it

2623
01:35:35,350 --> 01:35:34,480
um that's a good point what's your

2624
01:35:37,990 --> 01:35:35,360
thoughts on that

2625
01:35:39,669 --> 01:35:38,000
yeah i mean it's uh i mean i'm going

2626
01:35:40,229 --> 01:35:39,679
back to what i saw in the 60 minutes

2627
01:35:42,709 --> 01:35:40,239
episode

2628
01:35:44,310 --> 01:35:42,719
where uh you they obviously spoke to uh

2629
01:35:46,070 --> 01:35:44,320
two of the pilots and they and they

2630
01:35:49,189 --> 01:35:46,080
showed some of the uh

2631
01:35:49,990 --> 01:35:49,199
the uh the plain camera footage and

2632
01:35:53,910 --> 01:35:50,000
again it's just

2633
01:35:55,990 --> 01:35:53,920
it's um it's it's really hard to draw

2634
01:35:57,750 --> 01:35:56,000
conclusions because again like they're

2635
01:35:59,109 --> 01:35:57,760
they're navy pilots they they're saying

2636
01:35:59,750 --> 01:35:59,119
that they've never seen anything like

2637
01:36:01,669 --> 01:35:59,760
this

2638
01:36:03,510 --> 01:36:01,679
um there is some video footage to back

2639
01:36:06,950 --> 01:36:03,520
it up um

2640
01:36:09,669 --> 01:36:06,960
if the objects were able to

2641
01:36:10,470 --> 01:36:09,679
you know execute the um i think was like

2642
01:36:12,709 --> 01:36:10,480
a 60

2643
01:36:13,590 --> 01:36:12,719
000 foot plunge you know without a sonic

2644
01:36:15,910 --> 01:36:13,600
boom and

2645
01:36:18,390 --> 01:36:15,920
and it wasn't just you know a mistake in

2646
01:36:20,470 --> 01:36:18,400
in in the uh the monitoring equipment

2647
01:36:21,030 --> 01:36:20,480
you know like a miscalibrated radar or

2648
01:36:22,950 --> 01:36:21,040
something

2649
01:36:25,830 --> 01:36:22,960
and and there was a crap that actually

2650
01:36:28,229 --> 01:36:25,840
did that without producing that uh then

2651
01:36:29,109 --> 01:36:28,239
that sonic boom and it was you know then

2652
01:36:32,390 --> 01:36:29,119
you could say that yeah

2653
01:36:34,149 --> 01:36:32,400
that technology does seem way too far

2654
01:36:36,470 --> 01:36:34,159
ahead

2655
01:36:37,990 --> 01:36:36,480
of what of what this would be on on the

2656
01:36:39,030 --> 01:36:38,000
earth you know whether it's russia or

2657
01:36:42,149 --> 01:36:39,040
china

2658
01:36:45,350 --> 01:36:43,910
i think it's compelling but for me it's

2659
01:36:49,510 --> 01:36:45,360
hard to really draw

2660
01:36:53,350 --> 01:36:49,520
you know yeah something more

2661
01:36:54,550 --> 01:36:53,360
yeah you know if they've not used that

2662
01:36:56,149 --> 01:36:54,560
and of course you've seen the same

2663
01:36:57,030 --> 01:36:56,159
videos i had the latest one with the big

2664
01:36:58,950 --> 01:36:57,040
pyramids which

2665
01:37:00,390 --> 01:36:58,960
obviously if it's the perspective is

2666
01:37:02,229 --> 01:37:00,400
correct they're huge

2667
01:37:03,750 --> 01:37:02,239
and they're doing things that we have no

2668
01:37:05,590 --> 01:37:03,760
technology to do so let me

2669
01:37:06,950 --> 01:37:05,600
if i was another foreign country and had

2670
01:37:08,709 --> 01:37:06,960
the technology i wouldn't be sitting

2671
01:37:10,070 --> 01:37:08,719
back watching not using baby number one

2672
01:37:11,750 --> 01:37:10,080
in the united states and

2673
01:37:14,390 --> 01:37:11,760
whomever is using it russia china

2674
01:37:16,470 --> 01:37:14,400
however maybe not even russia china

2675
01:37:18,070 --> 01:37:16,480
will go you know i'm not going to et

2676
01:37:19,990 --> 01:37:18,080
i've been watching in a long time and

2677
01:37:21,350 --> 01:37:20,000
i've been seeing some incredible things

2678
01:37:22,709 --> 01:37:21,360
with people's cameras and

2679
01:37:24,870 --> 01:37:22,719
and i agree with a lot of things you

2680
01:37:25,750 --> 01:37:24,880
said too but when i see technologies

2681
01:37:27,510 --> 01:37:25,760
this output

2682
01:37:29,510 --> 01:37:27,520
and i can't believe that that people are

2683
01:37:31,030 --> 01:37:29,520
analyzing them things as a plane in the

2684
01:37:32,149 --> 01:37:31,040
background and they like the dope ass

2685
01:37:34,390 --> 01:37:32,159
video and things like that and

2686
01:37:36,149 --> 01:37:34,400
in transmitting vehicles going in and

2687
01:37:39,109 --> 01:37:36,159
out of the water videos from

2688
01:37:40,709 --> 01:37:39,119
really expensive systems so just just a

2689
01:37:43,590 --> 01:37:40,719
you know just a thought guy so

2690
01:37:44,629 --> 01:37:43,600
thanks martin yeah thank you uh just to

2691
01:37:47,590 --> 01:37:44,639
close that up uh

2692
01:37:47,990 --> 01:37:47,600
i do think that period the pyramid video

2693
01:37:50,229 --> 01:37:48,000
um

2694
01:37:52,070 --> 01:37:50,239
i i think that is the weakest of them

2695
01:37:53,030 --> 01:37:52,080
all only because it could be a camera

2696
01:37:55,430 --> 01:37:53,040
aperture

2697
01:37:57,350 --> 01:37:55,440
but um but the other videos i i think

2698
01:37:59,270 --> 01:37:57,360
are very compelling but uh really thank

2699
01:38:01,350 --> 01:37:59,280
you for the call i appreciate it

2700
01:38:03,109 --> 01:38:01,360
russell yeah i mean i i think the videos

2701
01:38:03,990 --> 01:38:03,119
are compelling too i just i'm very

2702
01:38:05,350 --> 01:38:04,000
curious to see

2703
01:38:07,750 --> 01:38:05,360
where we go from there right because i

2704
01:38:09,270 --> 01:38:07,760
mean it's if it is a technology and

2705
01:38:10,709 --> 01:38:09,280
we're worried that this is something

2706
01:38:11,990 --> 01:38:10,719
advanced from us then we should be

2707
01:38:13,669 --> 01:38:12,000
seeing some

2708
01:38:15,350 --> 01:38:13,679
you would think some some blowback from

2709
01:38:17,109 --> 01:38:15,360
that you know like if it's

2710
01:38:18,550 --> 01:38:17,119
someone that's using technology against

2711
01:38:20,790 --> 01:38:18,560
us in some way

2712
01:38:22,070 --> 01:38:20,800
um is it something that we have to

2713
01:38:25,430 --> 01:38:22,080
actually be afraid of

2714
01:38:26,709 --> 01:38:25,440
you know um i'm not yeah like again i

2715
01:38:28,149 --> 01:38:26,719
think i think it's compelling but i'm

2716
01:38:29,669 --> 01:38:28,159
not really convinced yet you know like

2717
01:38:31,030 --> 01:38:29,679
it's gonna take more than that for me to

2718
01:38:32,629 --> 01:38:31,040
be convinced it's just

2719
01:38:33,910 --> 01:38:32,639
belief is a very strong thing there's a

2720
01:38:35,750 --> 01:38:33,920
people tend to sort of believe what they

2721
01:38:38,310 --> 01:38:35,760
want to believe of course

2722
01:38:39,750 --> 01:38:38,320
um and i just try to keep as my mind as

2723
01:38:44,470 --> 01:38:39,760
open as possible so

2724
01:38:46,149 --> 01:38:44,480
for me to go from from zero to aliens um

2725
01:38:47,430 --> 01:38:46,159
based on what we've seen like say for

2726
01:38:49,030 --> 01:38:47,440
example in the 60 minutes episode

2727
01:38:50,310 --> 01:38:49,040
whether it's because the navy pilots

2728
01:38:52,149 --> 01:38:50,320
have got a lot of credentials and they

2729
01:38:54,470 --> 01:38:52,159
don't normally see this stuff

2730
01:38:55,910 --> 01:38:54,480
i like i said i'm very interested and i

2731
01:38:57,430 --> 01:38:55,920
and i believe that they had the

2732
01:38:59,750 --> 01:38:57,440
encounter that they had

2733
01:39:00,470 --> 01:38:59,760
but for me to go from that to aliens i'm

2734
01:39:03,189 --> 01:39:00,480
not there yet

2735
01:39:03,510 --> 01:39:03,199
that's all i'm saying and so well i

2736
01:39:05,350 --> 01:39:03,520
think

2737
01:39:06,629 --> 01:39:05,360
people are going even less they need

2738
01:39:08,310 --> 01:39:06,639
much less than that to convince

2739
01:39:10,070 --> 01:39:08,320
themselves of aliens right

2740
01:39:11,590 --> 01:39:10,080
well i think when it comes to the realm

2741
01:39:13,750 --> 01:39:11,600
of trying to explain

2742
01:39:14,629 --> 01:39:13,760
something you know i've been careful all

2743
01:39:17,270 --> 01:39:14,639
along to like

2744
01:39:18,629 --> 01:39:17,280
not say you know everything's aliens are

2745
01:39:20,310 --> 01:39:18,639
extraterrestrial but i think it's

2746
01:39:23,030 --> 01:39:20,320
definitely in the running

2747
01:39:24,870 --> 01:39:23,040
and uh because when you can't explain

2748
01:39:26,550 --> 01:39:24,880
what some of these technologies as

2749
01:39:28,229 --> 01:39:26,560
what you were just mentioning you know

2750
01:39:31,109 --> 01:39:28,239
lack of sonic boom

2751
01:39:32,550 --> 01:39:31,119
for you know breaking the speed of sound

2752
01:39:33,990 --> 01:39:32,560
10 times over

2753
01:39:36,070 --> 01:39:34,000
uh you know things like that and

2754
01:39:36,629 --> 01:39:36,080
stopping on a dime when you know 1500

2755
01:39:39,669 --> 01:39:36,639
g's

2756
01:39:40,149 --> 01:39:39,679
or whatever appears to have um and then

2757
01:39:42,310 --> 01:39:40,159
uh

2758
01:39:44,390 --> 01:39:42,320
for the eyewitnesses of the pilots you

2759
01:39:47,510 --> 01:39:44,400
know those type of things

2760
01:39:49,109 --> 01:39:47,520
it's kind of okay uh let's look at the

2761
01:39:50,550 --> 01:39:49,119
possibilities you know what are the

2762
01:39:53,189 --> 01:39:50,560
possibilities for that

2763
01:39:54,149 --> 01:39:53,199
um i don't believe you know i believe

2764
01:39:57,510 --> 01:39:54,159
one of the sayings

2765
01:40:00,070 --> 01:39:57,520
that i heard lou elizondo say is uh

2766
01:40:01,270 --> 01:40:00,080
you know maybe it's like a hundred years

2767
01:40:03,189 --> 01:40:01,280
or a thousand years

2768
01:40:05,109 --> 01:40:03,199
advanced i mean that's that's a big

2769
01:40:05,750 --> 01:40:05,119
stretch between 100 and a thousand years

2770
01:40:09,270 --> 01:40:05,760
the way

2771
01:40:10,950 --> 01:40:09,280
technology grows um but he doesn't think

2772
01:40:15,030 --> 01:40:10,960
that we have the technology

2773
01:40:17,109 --> 01:40:15,040
so you know that's when it kind of uh

2774
01:40:18,550 --> 01:40:17,119
it seems like that might be true you

2775
01:40:20,790 --> 01:40:18,560
know if if what they

2776
01:40:22,470 --> 01:40:20,800
have seen on radar and what they've seen

2777
01:40:25,590 --> 01:40:22,480
and witnessed and

2778
01:40:27,109 --> 01:40:25,600
all that yeah the the radar example is

2779
01:40:29,510 --> 01:40:27,119
is a good one when they talk about the

2780
01:40:31,590 --> 01:40:29,520
uh i i think it's 60 000 feet

2781
01:40:33,270 --> 01:40:31,600
60 or 80 thousand feet that the drop

2782
01:40:35,669 --> 01:40:33,280
where it makes the extreme drop

2783
01:40:37,270 --> 01:40:35,679
i mean that's where i would say if that

2784
01:40:38,310 --> 01:40:37,280
was one that was only picked up by their

2785
01:40:40,550 --> 01:40:38,320
equipment

2786
01:40:41,910 --> 01:40:40,560
what's more likely that there's that

2787
01:40:43,510 --> 01:40:41,920
it's an alien ship that's

2788
01:40:46,390 --> 01:40:43,520
that's able to do this maneuver without

2789
01:40:49,510 --> 01:40:46,400
creating a sonic boom or is it something

2790
01:40:51,510 --> 01:40:49,520
wrong with the the monitoring equipment

2791
01:40:52,550 --> 01:40:51,520
i go towards that then i go towards well

2792
01:40:54,149 --> 01:40:52,560
must be aliens

2793
01:40:55,750 --> 01:40:54,159
you know like that's just that's just me

2794
01:40:56,550 --> 01:40:55,760
you know like again like maybe it was

2795
01:40:58,229 --> 01:40:56,560
aliens but

2796
01:41:00,790 --> 01:40:58,239
you're i'm going to need more than that

2797
01:41:03,990 --> 01:41:00,800
to to be convinced you know it's uh

2798
01:41:05,750 --> 01:41:04,000
um yeah it was 80 000 feet and

2799
01:41:07,189 --> 01:41:05,760
and it was also no it wasn't just a

2800
01:41:09,189 --> 01:41:07,199
single radar there were other

2801
01:41:10,870 --> 01:41:09,199
you know there was more radar involved

2802
01:41:13,830 --> 01:41:10,880
so that i think it's one of the

2803
01:41:14,550 --> 01:41:13,840
the most compelling cases and you know

2804
01:41:18,550 --> 01:41:14,560
and um

2805
01:41:19,910 --> 01:41:18,560
so um there are just some cases out

2806
01:41:22,390 --> 01:41:19,920
there that just keep me

2807
01:41:23,590 --> 01:41:22,400
looking into this topic oh yeah i mean

2808
01:41:24,550 --> 01:41:23,600
that's why i'm so interested i mean as

2809
01:41:26,550 --> 01:41:24,560
skeptical as i am

2810
01:41:28,390 --> 01:41:26,560
at the end of the day i'm not dismissing

2811
01:41:31,430 --> 01:41:28,400
it you know like i am interested i am

2812
01:41:31,990 --> 01:41:31,440
i am listening um unfortunately having a

2813
01:41:34,229 --> 01:41:32,000
skeptical

2814
01:41:36,149 --> 01:41:34,239
attitude is sort of seen as being very

2815
01:41:37,830 --> 01:41:36,159
competitive when it's really just

2816
01:41:39,189 --> 01:41:37,840
hey man i'd love for it to be aliens but

2817
01:41:42,070 --> 01:41:39,199
i like again i'm not a fool

2818
01:41:43,830 --> 01:41:42,080
and i'm going i need more than just the

2819
01:41:44,870 --> 01:41:43,840
mystery you know i love the mystery i

2820
01:41:46,790 --> 01:41:44,880
write about the mystery

2821
01:41:47,990 --> 01:41:46,800
it's the reason why i got interested in

2822
01:41:49,510 --> 01:41:48,000
this in the first place

2823
01:41:51,109 --> 01:41:49,520
and even though i'm no longer actively

2824
01:41:51,990 --> 01:41:51,119
investigating it's the reason why i keep

2825
01:41:53,590 --> 01:41:52,000
a toe

2826
01:41:55,270 --> 01:41:53,600
in the business but i think if you ask

2827
01:41:57,189 --> 01:41:55,280
even the most respected people

2828
01:41:58,709 --> 01:41:57,199
like your jacques vales and your kevin

2829
01:42:00,390 --> 01:41:58,719
randles they will tell you the exact

2830
01:42:01,270 --> 01:42:00,400
same thing there are definitely cases

2831
01:42:03,830 --> 01:42:01,280
that

2832
01:42:05,830 --> 01:42:03,840
they find very compelling but whether or

2833
01:42:07,830 --> 01:42:05,840
not they actually think extraterrestrial

2834
01:42:09,030 --> 01:42:07,840
biological entities are visiting earth

2835
01:42:10,790 --> 01:42:09,040
today

2836
01:42:12,470 --> 01:42:10,800
i don't know of either one of them or

2837
01:42:14,390 --> 01:42:12,480
anyone who is

2838
01:42:15,750 --> 01:42:14,400
you know very uh skeptically minded

2839
01:42:17,030 --> 01:42:15,760
would say oh yeah definitely

2840
01:42:19,189 --> 01:42:17,040
i think they might point to certain

2841
01:42:21,350 --> 01:42:19,199
cases and say well this one's very

2842
01:42:23,510 --> 01:42:21,360
compelling or that one's very compelling

2843
01:42:25,109 --> 01:42:23,520
um as i would you know but it's it's

2844
01:42:26,950 --> 01:42:25,119
just so hard because i mean even when

2845
01:42:28,470 --> 01:42:26,960
you look at a case like roswell which is

2846
01:42:31,830 --> 01:42:28,480
sort of held up as the

2847
01:42:33,270 --> 01:42:31,840
the ufo retrieval case very little

2848
01:42:34,790 --> 01:42:33,280
evidence to support it you know even

2849
01:42:35,590 --> 01:42:34,800
even randall to this day doesn't think

2850
01:42:37,590 --> 01:42:35,600
that it was

2851
01:42:39,990 --> 01:42:37,600
extraterrestrial you know i mean this

2852
01:42:41,990 --> 01:42:40,000
was a case that for 20 years no one was

2853
01:42:44,790 --> 01:42:42,000
speaking about until you know

2854
01:42:45,270 --> 01:42:44,800
uh burlitz and uh 1980 even wrote wrote

2855
01:42:46,790 --> 01:42:45,280
the book

2856
01:42:47,990 --> 01:42:46,800
you know back in the 70s you know there

2857
01:42:49,910 --> 01:42:48,000
was a whole span of years when no one

2858
01:42:53,030 --> 01:42:49,920
was talking about this they yeah

2859
01:42:54,149 --> 01:42:53,040
after uh after 47. so um it definitely

2860
01:42:54,950 --> 01:42:54,159
again it seemed like something had

2861
01:42:56,229 --> 01:42:54,960
happened there

2862
01:42:58,390 --> 01:42:56,239
but there was never any physical

2863
01:42:59,669 --> 01:42:58,400
evidence um it was really just stories

2864
01:43:00,550 --> 01:42:59,679
that people had told that had been

2865
01:43:02,149 --> 01:43:00,560
passed down

2866
01:43:04,629 --> 01:43:02,159
almost like a folklore again i'm very

2867
01:43:07,830 --> 01:43:04,639
interested in as a kind of folklore

2868
01:43:09,030 --> 01:43:07,840
but um but in terms of the nuts and

2869
01:43:10,790 --> 01:43:09,040
bolts evidence

2870
01:43:12,310 --> 01:43:10,800
there wasn't really much of anything

2871
01:43:14,229 --> 01:43:12,320
that said oh yeah definitely that was

2872
01:43:15,030 --> 01:43:14,239
aliens that was a that was a ufo that

2873
01:43:16,870 --> 01:43:15,040
crashed there

2874
01:43:18,149 --> 01:43:16,880
but again it's a mystery you know i find

2875
01:43:20,470 --> 01:43:18,159
it very interesting

2876
01:43:21,350 --> 01:43:20,480
like a lot of people i wasn't convinced

2877
01:43:25,750 --> 01:43:21,360
um of

2878
01:43:27,910 --> 01:43:25,760
the uh i think it was the 97 the uh

2879
01:43:29,350 --> 01:43:27,920
uh the balloon theory the the top secret

2880
01:43:30,790 --> 01:43:29,360
ball oh yeah the 90s right

2881
01:43:32,149 --> 01:43:30,800
yeah when they sort of disclosed that

2882
01:43:33,430 --> 01:43:32,159
that wasn't entirely convincing either

2883
01:43:34,629 --> 01:43:33,440
but again just because it's not

2884
01:43:35,830 --> 01:43:34,639
convincing doesn't mean that i

2885
01:43:37,750 --> 01:43:35,840
immediately go to aliens

2886
01:43:39,270 --> 01:43:37,760
you know so there's lots of reasons why

2887
01:43:40,149 --> 01:43:39,280
the government is not forthcoming with

2888
01:43:42,070 --> 01:43:40,159
information

2889
01:43:43,830 --> 01:43:42,080
and to assume that the solution or the

2890
01:43:46,629 --> 01:43:43,840
reason is extraterrestrial

2891
01:43:47,590 --> 01:43:46,639
um there's there's a lot less that uh

2892
01:43:49,430 --> 01:43:47,600
that governments

2893
01:43:52,390 --> 01:43:49,440
have uh have covered up for you know

2894
01:43:54,550 --> 01:43:52,400
there are lots like smaller reasons than

2895
01:43:56,310 --> 01:43:54,560
aliens a lot smaller mistakes they've

2896
01:43:58,310 --> 01:43:56,320
still felt the need to uh

2897
01:44:00,070 --> 01:43:58,320
keep from the public it's almost a uh a

2898
01:44:02,709 --> 01:44:00,080
knee-jerk reaction with with some

2899
01:44:04,390 --> 01:44:02,719
agencies they're just it's uh it's

2900
01:44:06,229 --> 01:44:04,400
become standard policy just to sort of

2901
01:44:08,229 --> 01:44:06,239
obfuscate and uh and lie

2902
01:44:09,510 --> 01:44:08,239
you know well i think if the government

2903
01:44:11,270 --> 01:44:09,520
doesn't know

2904
01:44:13,669 --> 01:44:11,280
like to say the air force or whatever

2905
01:44:16,709 --> 01:44:13,679
has no idea what's going on

2906
01:44:18,149 --> 01:44:16,719
it's just as dangerous as if they did i

2907
01:44:18,870 --> 01:44:18,159
mean they have no way to protect the

2908
01:44:22,149 --> 01:44:18,880
skies

2909
01:44:23,830 --> 01:44:22,159
uh or you know or have answers about

2910
01:44:25,189 --> 01:44:23,840
what's going on absolutely and they

2911
01:44:26,709 --> 01:44:25,199
don't want it they don't i mean the

2912
01:44:28,229 --> 01:44:26,719
nation's security is only based on how

2913
01:44:29,430 --> 01:44:28,239
much faith you have in it that the

2914
01:44:30,950 --> 01:44:29,440
people haven't that's right

2915
01:44:32,870 --> 01:44:30,960
and yeah you don't want to start frankly

2916
01:44:36,310 --> 01:44:32,880
i think to be more mass hysteria

2917
01:44:37,669 --> 01:44:36,320
um from uh from a government saying we

2918
01:44:39,510 --> 01:44:37,679
don't know how to protect our people

2919
01:44:40,870 --> 01:44:39,520
than you would have with um the

2920
01:44:42,310 --> 01:44:40,880
government's saying aliens exist and

2921
01:44:43,669 --> 01:44:42,320
we've been in contact with them for 60

2922
01:44:45,430 --> 01:44:43,679
years i mean

2923
01:44:47,189 --> 01:44:45,440
we've seen enough movies and tv shows

2924
01:44:48,950 --> 01:44:47,199
this idea that oh it's going to rock

2925
01:44:51,830 --> 01:44:48,960
people it's going to destroy religion

2926
01:44:53,750 --> 01:44:51,840
i don't think so i don't either prepared

2927
01:44:56,550 --> 01:44:53,760
from ufo media for the past

2928
01:44:57,830 --> 01:44:56,560
50 years good and bad yeah no no i don't

2929
01:44:58,709 --> 01:44:57,840
i think you're right about that i don't

2930
01:45:00,149 --> 01:44:58,719
think it would

2931
01:45:02,229 --> 01:45:00,159
i think a lot of people are sort of

2932
01:45:04,550 --> 01:45:02,239
prepared for it or

2933
01:45:05,430 --> 01:45:04,560
have slowly been preparing uh you know i

2934
01:45:07,510 --> 01:45:05,440
mean if

2935
01:45:08,870 --> 01:45:07,520
if that's the case in the argument you

2936
01:45:10,790 --> 01:45:08,880
mentioned earlier that i've

2937
01:45:12,070 --> 01:45:10,800
i've heard a lot of times about you know

2938
01:45:15,109 --> 01:45:12,080
how would they get here

2939
01:45:16,470 --> 01:45:15,119
from i'm there from here you know that's

2940
01:45:18,070 --> 01:45:16,480
when you do hear a lot

2941
01:45:20,629 --> 01:45:18,080
and you know maybe it's just something

2942
01:45:21,030 --> 01:45:20,639
that we will figure out someday if that

2943
01:45:24,149 --> 01:45:21,040
if

2944
01:45:25,990 --> 01:45:24,159
know

2945
01:45:27,669 --> 01:45:26,000
um yeah because we're just floating

2946
01:45:29,109 --> 01:45:27,679
around you know in space

2947
01:45:31,030 --> 01:45:29,119
be moving through dimensions if they

2948
01:45:31,669 --> 01:45:31,040
were coming here in a kind of a physical

2949
01:45:34,390 --> 01:45:31,679
way

2950
01:45:35,430 --> 01:45:34,400
i like to think that um if i was if i

2951
01:45:37,189 --> 01:45:35,440
was going to write it if i was going to

2952
01:45:38,950 --> 01:45:37,199
write a realistic story

2953
01:45:40,070 --> 01:45:38,960
about actual contact that the government

2954
01:45:41,669 --> 01:45:40,080
had been covering up it wouldn't have

2955
01:45:43,430 --> 01:45:41,679
been a ufo crash

2956
01:45:45,510 --> 01:45:43,440
it wouldn't have been aliens on ice in a

2957
01:45:47,430 --> 01:45:45,520
bunker somewhere it would be it would be

2958
01:45:49,990 --> 01:45:47,440
a signal it would be it would be radio

2959
01:45:51,990 --> 01:45:50,000
i think i think it would be a i mean the

2960
01:45:53,669 --> 01:45:52,000
reason why that doesn't hold up

2961
01:45:55,590 --> 01:45:53,679
in terms of reality oh that we've been

2962
01:45:56,629 --> 01:45:55,600
in radio contact with aliens is the fact

2963
01:46:00,790 --> 01:45:56,639
that

2964
01:46:03,030 --> 01:46:00,800
have been able to intercept

2965
01:46:04,790 --> 01:46:03,040
a broadcast like that that the idea that

2966
01:46:07,430 --> 01:46:04,800
only like say the us government or the

2967
01:46:08,790 --> 01:46:07,440
cia or the nsa

2968
01:46:10,470 --> 01:46:08,800
it just doesn't hold any water like

2969
01:46:11,990 --> 01:46:10,480
there's just there's no way of screening

2970
01:46:13,430 --> 01:46:12,000
that kind of a call that would be being

2971
01:46:16,550 --> 01:46:13,440
broadcast to earth and

2972
01:46:17,990 --> 01:46:16,560
and and being able to uh to to have been

2973
01:46:19,109 --> 01:46:18,000
aimed directly at earth i mean it's sort

2974
01:46:20,550 --> 01:46:19,119
of an infant test well you start getting

2975
01:46:22,149 --> 01:46:20,560
into the math there where again

2976
01:46:23,590 --> 01:46:22,159
all you need to talk to is a scientist

2977
01:46:25,510 --> 01:46:23,600
not even a um

2978
01:46:26,709 --> 01:46:25,520
an astronomer but just a mathematician

2979
01:46:28,709 --> 01:46:26,719
who will tell you the

2980
01:46:30,149 --> 01:46:28,719
the mathematical possibility of this

2981
01:46:33,350 --> 01:46:30,159
this or this happening

2982
01:46:34,629 --> 01:46:33,360
um it's uh it's like what you're talking

2983
01:46:36,310 --> 01:46:34,639
about with um

2984
01:46:37,990 --> 01:46:36,320
the navy footage about how the

2985
01:46:38,950 --> 01:46:38,000
technology seems to be either 100 or a

2986
01:46:42,149 --> 01:46:38,960
thousand years

2987
01:46:43,750 --> 01:46:42,159
uh

2988
01:46:45,669 --> 01:46:43,760
say it's an alien technology that's a

2989
01:46:47,350 --> 01:46:45,679
thousand years the idea that

2990
01:46:49,510 --> 01:46:47,360
there's an alien species that's like

2991
01:46:52,149 --> 01:46:49,520
around a thousand years advanced from us

2992
01:46:53,590 --> 01:46:52,159
is still very astronomical like i think

2993
01:46:54,229 --> 01:46:53,600
it's more likely that they'd be millions

2994
01:46:55,990 --> 01:46:54,239
of years

2995
01:46:57,669 --> 01:46:56,000
advanced to us yes you know yeah which

2996
01:46:58,070 --> 01:46:57,679
case they would never we would never see

2997
01:46:59,430 --> 01:46:58,080
them

2998
01:47:00,870 --> 01:46:59,440
it wouldn't be oh here's an unexplained

2999
01:47:02,310 --> 01:47:00,880
sighting or here's a craft that's not

3000
01:47:04,310 --> 01:47:02,320
able to create a sonic boom

3001
01:47:05,910 --> 01:47:04,320
no way they would be stealth all the way

3002
01:47:06,149 --> 01:47:05,920
we wouldn't even know they're watching

3003
01:47:07,510 --> 01:47:06,159
us

3004
01:47:09,590 --> 01:47:07,520
you know so yeah there's a lot of

3005
01:47:10,870 --> 01:47:09,600
questions about that like i remember i

3006
01:47:11,750 --> 01:47:10,880
don't know maybe a couple years ago

3007
01:47:14,950 --> 01:47:11,760
someone

3008
01:47:16,790 --> 01:47:14,960
wrote during the chat you know if

3009
01:47:18,950 --> 01:47:16,800
if they did want to be seen why do they

3010
01:47:20,550 --> 01:47:18,960
have lights why would they need lights

3011
01:47:22,790 --> 01:47:20,560
yeah i mean that's the thing with the

3012
01:47:24,070 --> 01:47:22,800
guardian case was guardian included

3013
01:47:25,750 --> 01:47:24,080
documents on why

3014
01:47:27,669 --> 01:47:25,760
the flares were there was because they

3015
01:47:29,189 --> 01:47:27,679
were to help at land help the ufo land

3016
01:47:31,750 --> 01:47:29,199
which of course makes no sense that you

3017
01:47:34,550 --> 01:47:31,760
have this craft that flies up late years

3018
01:47:35,270 --> 01:47:34,560
but needs you know needs flares to land

3019
01:47:37,189 --> 01:47:35,280
its craft

3020
01:47:39,590 --> 01:47:37,199
or again you go back to roswell or any

3021
01:47:41,270 --> 01:47:39,600
ufo crash retrieval story they make

3022
01:47:43,109 --> 01:47:41,280
great stories i love the story about

3023
01:47:44,629 --> 01:47:43,119
shag harper it's a canadian ufo

3024
01:47:46,310 --> 01:47:44,639
i was going to ask you about that it's

3025
01:47:47,830 --> 01:47:46,320
great but again they make good stories

3026
01:47:49,990 --> 01:47:47,840
but there's not really any evidence to

3027
01:47:51,750 --> 01:47:50,000
back them up even roswell because

3028
01:47:53,270 --> 01:47:51,760
the i'll give the aliens credit they're

3029
01:47:55,189 --> 01:47:53,280
always they're always very considerate

3030
01:47:57,270 --> 01:47:55,199
that they crash their ships into very

3031
01:47:57,910 --> 01:47:57,280
remote areas like deserts in the deep

3032
01:47:59,270 --> 01:47:57,920
ocean

3033
01:48:01,510 --> 01:47:59,280
rather than crashing them into any

3034
01:48:03,510 --> 01:48:01,520
populated areas because it never happens

3035
01:48:05,109 --> 01:48:03,520
you know there there's there have been

3036
01:48:06,709 --> 01:48:05,119
dozens if not hundreds of reports of

3037
01:48:07,669 --> 01:48:06,719
crash retrievals over the years from all

3038
01:48:10,709 --> 01:48:07,679
over the world

3039
01:48:12,310 --> 01:48:10,719
and they're never in a place where

3040
01:48:14,310 --> 01:48:12,320
there could have been anyone to see it

3041
01:48:16,070 --> 01:48:14,320
or or recover material from it

3042
01:48:17,669 --> 01:48:16,080
it's always very conveniently in a place

3043
01:48:19,189 --> 01:48:17,679
where the government's able to come in

3044
01:48:20,310 --> 01:48:19,199
you know scoop everything up sanitize

3045
01:48:21,030 --> 01:48:20,320
the area they don't leave anything

3046
01:48:22,149 --> 01:48:21,040
behind

3047
01:48:23,350 --> 01:48:22,159
and for me that's what i would like is

3048
01:48:24,470 --> 01:48:23,360
evidence i would like someone to go back

3049
01:48:26,550 --> 01:48:24,480
to roswell

3050
01:48:28,790 --> 01:48:26,560
and if they found a piece of debris or

3051
01:48:29,430 --> 01:48:28,800
some alien dna and they take that to 60

3052
01:48:32,070 --> 01:48:29,440
minutes

3053
01:48:34,070 --> 01:48:32,080
i'd be much more convinced by that than

3054
01:48:35,910 --> 01:48:34,080
than the navy stuff which again i find

3055
01:48:36,310 --> 01:48:35,920
very very interesting and i want to know

3056
01:48:38,229 --> 01:48:36,320
more

3057
01:48:39,990 --> 01:48:38,239
and i'm keep a very open mind but i'm

3058
01:48:42,149 --> 01:48:40,000
still not convinced yet that it's

3059
01:48:44,310 --> 01:48:42,159
aliens visiting the earth yeah as much

3060
01:48:47,590 --> 01:48:44,320
as i wish that was true

3061
01:48:48,790 --> 01:48:47,600
you know the the earth is 70 percent

3062
01:48:50,070 --> 01:48:48,800
ocean

3063
01:48:52,709 --> 01:48:50,080
you know and and we're just talking

3064
01:48:55,030 --> 01:48:52,719
about the crash when we have

3065
01:48:56,070 --> 01:48:55,040
like debris coming in from the space

3066
01:48:59,270 --> 01:48:56,080
from space

3067
01:49:01,189 --> 01:48:59,280
you know landing it usually lands

3068
01:49:02,390 --> 01:49:01,199
you know in the ocean because it's 70

3069
01:49:05,830 --> 01:49:02,400
percent of the earth

3070
01:49:08,550 --> 01:49:05,840
so yeah that is uh i wonder if uh

3071
01:49:09,669 --> 01:49:08,560
has anybody ever talked about a crash in

3072
01:49:11,430 --> 01:49:09,679
the ocean

3073
01:49:13,109 --> 01:49:11,440
or recovery i know there was that one

3074
01:49:15,270 --> 01:49:13,119
off of malibu i think

3075
01:49:16,310 --> 01:49:15,280
where it's just a rock formation i

3076
01:49:18,149 --> 01:49:16,320
believe that it is

3077
01:49:19,830 --> 01:49:18,159
but you were aliens visiting the earth i

3078
01:49:21,430 --> 01:49:19,840
mean say you say you were here

3079
01:49:22,950 --> 01:49:21,440
and your technology was so advanced but

3080
01:49:24,149 --> 01:49:22,960
somehow you really were worried about

3081
01:49:25,750 --> 01:49:24,159
detection which again doesn't really

3082
01:49:27,189 --> 01:49:25,760
make a lot of sense to me when you see

3083
01:49:28,149 --> 01:49:27,199
these craft and they're able to do these

3084
01:49:29,750 --> 01:49:28,159
maneuvers

3085
01:49:31,350 --> 01:49:29,760
i always think wow they're so advanced

3086
01:49:32,390 --> 01:49:31,360
why are we seeing them at all it makes

3087
01:49:33,750 --> 01:49:32,400
no sense to me

3088
01:49:34,870 --> 01:49:33,760
if they don't want to be seen if they

3089
01:49:36,470 --> 01:49:34,880
don't want to be seen they shouldn't be

3090
01:49:38,550 --> 01:49:36,480
able to be seen

3091
01:49:39,910 --> 01:49:38,560
bending light you know electromagnetic

3092
01:49:41,830 --> 01:49:39,920
fields there will be ways to render

3093
01:49:43,270 --> 01:49:41,840
themselves invisible to even the human

3094
01:49:44,870 --> 01:49:43,280
eye much less all of our

3095
01:49:47,589 --> 01:49:44,880
surveillance equipment but yeah you're

3096
01:49:50,470 --> 01:49:47,599
right the earth is 70 80 percent water

3097
01:49:50,870 --> 01:49:50,480
um why are they not just hanging out

3098
01:49:53,510 --> 01:49:50,880
there

3099
01:49:54,790 --> 01:49:53,520
you know like i mean uh james this is

3100
01:49:55,350 --> 01:49:54,800
one of my favorite that is another

3101
01:49:57,589 --> 01:49:55,360
theory

3102
01:49:58,629 --> 01:49:57,599
yeah it's um and that's what the aliens

3103
01:50:00,709 --> 01:49:58,639
do in the abyss they

3104
01:50:02,629 --> 01:50:00,719
they they don't want to be detected by

3105
01:50:04,070 --> 01:50:02,639
humans so they go to the one place that

3106
01:50:07,189 --> 01:50:04,080
humans can't go an

3107
01:50:08,790 --> 01:50:07,199
ocean trench eight miles you know uh

3108
01:50:09,910 --> 01:50:08,800
below the low sea level where the

3109
01:50:11,510 --> 01:50:09,920
pressure pressure's too great humans

3110
01:50:12,790 --> 01:50:11,520
just they can't even go their technology

3111
01:50:14,390 --> 01:50:12,800
can barely even reach it

3112
01:50:16,790 --> 01:50:14,400
that to me makes sense it's not just a

3113
01:50:18,229 --> 01:50:16,800
good story but from the alien angle

3114
01:50:20,470 --> 01:50:18,239
where they don't want to be detected and

3115
01:50:22,149 --> 01:50:20,480
there are physical you know biological

3116
01:50:23,510 --> 01:50:22,159
andes with physical crafts

3117
01:50:25,189 --> 01:50:23,520
that's what you would do if you did not

3118
01:50:27,990 --> 01:50:25,199
want to be noticed by

3119
01:50:29,669 --> 01:50:28,000
the the local population now we only

3120
01:50:33,030 --> 01:50:29,679
have about four minutes left so

3121
01:50:35,510 --> 01:50:33,040
this question um is a short

3122
01:50:36,470 --> 01:50:35,520
short short answer but what would you

3123
01:50:38,310 --> 01:50:36,480
say is uh

3124
01:50:40,629 --> 01:50:38,320
what would you consider the most

3125
01:50:44,310 --> 01:50:40,639
compelling ufo case

3126
01:50:45,750 --> 01:50:44,320
oh it doesn't have to be canada

3127
01:50:47,030 --> 01:50:45,760
yeah you know well one of them is canada

3128
01:50:47,990 --> 01:50:47,040
and again i would i'm going to go back

3129
01:50:50,709 --> 01:50:48,000
to mothman

3130
01:50:52,470 --> 01:50:50,719
just because i feel like i don't even if

3131
01:50:53,750 --> 01:50:52,480
it was ufos but something

3132
01:50:54,790 --> 01:50:53,760
paranormal was done i feel like

3133
01:50:56,070 --> 01:50:54,800
something paranormal was definitely

3134
01:50:59,910 --> 01:50:56,080
happening there's because it

3135
01:51:03,589 --> 01:50:59,920
it was such a melange of ufos cryptids

3136
01:51:05,189 --> 01:51:03,599
uh premonitions men in black um

3137
01:51:06,310 --> 01:51:05,199
i just i can't believe that something

3138
01:51:07,510 --> 01:51:06,320
wasn't going on there whether or not it

3139
01:51:08,709 --> 01:51:07,520
was connected to the bridge or not i

3140
01:51:09,350 --> 01:51:08,719
think the collapse of the bridge was

3141
01:51:11,990 --> 01:51:09,360
pretty much

3142
01:51:13,669 --> 01:51:12,000
um explained um it wasn't really

3143
01:51:14,550 --> 01:51:13,679
supernatural and i think they kind of

3144
01:51:16,310 --> 01:51:14,560
said it was

3145
01:51:17,750 --> 01:51:16,320
it was it was coming it was it was a

3146
01:51:20,870 --> 01:51:17,760
load-bearing issue

3147
01:51:21,990 --> 01:51:20,880
but i've always felt like you know

3148
01:51:23,189 --> 01:51:22,000
i would have liked to have gone back in

3149
01:51:24,149 --> 01:51:23,199
time and investigated one case that

3150
01:51:25,589 --> 01:51:24,159
would have been mothman

3151
01:51:27,350 --> 01:51:25,599
i think maybe something was really

3152
01:51:27,669 --> 01:51:27,360
happening there but again it's hard to

3153
01:51:31,109 --> 01:51:27,679
tell

3154
01:51:34,310 --> 01:51:31,119
right um so much time has passed um

3155
01:51:35,430 --> 01:51:34,320
in terms of uh specifically ufo cases i

3156
01:51:37,910 --> 01:51:35,440
think falcon lake

3157
01:51:39,510 --> 01:51:37,920
in in canada oh yeah you had a witness

3158
01:51:41,189 --> 01:51:39,520
who seemed really legit and again

3159
01:51:43,510 --> 01:51:41,199
people people do lie they don't need a

3160
01:51:45,430 --> 01:51:43,520
reason to lie so i'm always very wary of

3161
01:51:46,790 --> 01:51:45,440
oh this person tells the truth and

3162
01:51:48,310 --> 01:51:46,800
they're honest as the day is long they

3163
01:51:49,510 --> 01:51:48,320
have no reason to lie that's not usually

3164
01:51:50,550 --> 01:51:49,520
convincing to me people don't need a

3165
01:51:52,470 --> 01:51:50,560
reason to lie

3166
01:51:53,910 --> 01:51:52,480
but i will say that he seemed really

3167
01:51:55,669 --> 01:51:53,920
really honest i didn't really think

3168
01:51:56,550 --> 01:51:55,679
there was a reason why he would tell the

3169
01:51:58,550 --> 01:51:56,560
story there was

3170
01:52:00,070 --> 01:51:58,560
trace evidence there was physical

3171
01:52:02,310 --> 01:52:00,080
effects on his body

3172
01:52:03,910 --> 01:52:02,320
there was there was material collected

3173
01:52:05,750 --> 01:52:03,920
um at the site

3174
01:52:07,430 --> 01:52:05,760
um it just seemed like it really

3175
01:52:09,030 --> 01:52:07,440
fulfilled a lot of those categories that

3176
01:52:10,229 --> 01:52:09,040
even like an investigator like jail and

3177
01:52:11,669 --> 01:52:10,239
highneck would be able to say

3178
01:52:13,189 --> 01:52:11,679
yeah something happened here we all know

3179
01:52:14,950 --> 01:52:13,199
what it is it was an experimental

3180
01:52:17,589 --> 01:52:14,960
aircraft or something but

3181
01:52:19,030 --> 01:52:17,599
something physically tangible actually

3182
01:52:20,470 --> 01:52:19,040
happened there and that's why i like it

3183
01:52:23,430 --> 01:52:20,480
it's just whether or not it was

3184
01:52:24,950 --> 01:52:23,440
aliens or not at least it's a case that

3185
01:52:26,149 --> 01:52:24,960
you can really sink your teeth into as

3186
01:52:27,830 --> 01:52:26,159
an investigator like

3187
01:52:29,910 --> 01:52:27,840
something really did seem to yeah there

3188
01:52:30,709 --> 01:52:29,920
he is something thing really did seem to

3189
01:52:34,149 --> 01:52:30,719
happen to him

3190
01:52:35,510 --> 01:52:34,159
that area from

3191
01:52:37,510 --> 01:52:35,520
you sort of treat it like my father was

3192
01:52:38,950 --> 01:52:37,520
in the rcmp so i come from an

3193
01:52:40,229 --> 01:52:38,960
investigator's background so i really

3194
01:52:41,430 --> 01:52:40,239
think of

3195
01:52:42,790 --> 01:52:41,440
you treat it like a crime scene you

3196
01:52:43,990 --> 01:52:42,800
treat like a criminal case these are the

3197
01:52:45,830 --> 01:52:44,000
things you need to line up

3198
01:52:48,229 --> 01:52:45,840
like eyewitness accounts are important

3199
01:52:50,149 --> 01:52:48,239
but if you take that to

3200
01:52:51,750 --> 01:52:50,159
like a trial you're probably going to

3201
01:52:52,470 --> 01:52:51,760
need more than that to get a conviction

3202
01:52:53,990 --> 01:52:52,480
so

3203
01:52:55,669 --> 01:52:54,000
um you need other evidence you need

3204
01:52:57,589 --> 01:52:55,679
physical evidence you need you know

3205
01:52:59,030 --> 01:52:57,599
forensics that sort of a thing and if

3206
01:52:59,910 --> 01:52:59,040
you were to apply that to this ufo

3207
01:53:03,109 --> 01:52:59,920
investigation

3208
01:53:04,790 --> 01:53:03,119
i think falcon lake just really checks

3209
01:53:05,750 --> 01:53:04,800
off a lot of those boxes i still don't

3210
01:53:08,070 --> 01:53:05,760
know what it is

3211
01:53:09,350 --> 01:53:08,080
but um it for me it's just again it's

3212
01:53:12,229 --> 01:53:09,360
another one of these ones where

3213
01:53:13,669 --> 01:53:12,239
it just seems like such a a genuine diet

3214
01:53:15,990 --> 01:53:13,679
in the wool mystery

3215
01:53:17,109 --> 01:53:16,000
right right thank you so much it's been

3216
01:53:18,310 --> 01:53:17,119
a real pleasure i wish you

3217
01:53:20,390 --> 01:53:18,320
could have had you on for a whole show

3218
01:53:23,750 --> 01:53:20,400
maybe you'll you'll come back someday

3219
01:53:25,910 --> 01:53:23,760
whoops uh i did i kick you out

3220
01:53:27,589 --> 01:53:25,920
so here you are i don't know what

3221
01:53:29,510 --> 01:53:27,599
happened the technology

3222
01:53:30,950 --> 01:53:29,520
anyway thank you very much it was a real

3223
01:53:31,669 --> 01:53:30,960
pleasure thank you very much and thanks

3224
01:53:35,669 --> 01:53:31,679
for having me

3225
01:53:38,470 --> 01:53:35,679
all right take care all right next week

3226
01:53:40,070 --> 01:53:38,480
we'll be back from i'm actually uh i'm

3227
01:53:41,750 --> 01:53:40,080
not 100 sure if i'm going to be here

3228
01:53:42,470 --> 01:53:41,760
tuesday next week i'm going to do my

3229
01:53:45,669 --> 01:53:42,480
best

3230
01:53:47,430 --> 01:53:45,679
uh but uh it should be um if so it'll be

3231
01:53:48,070 --> 01:53:47,440
here with ron james so thanks so much

3232
01:53:49,430 --> 01:53:48,080
everyone

3233
01:54:02,930 --> 01:53:49,440
and we'll see you next week remember to